MattW

Anyone know anything about Cranial osteopathy. Someone has suggested it may help our youngest who has frequent ear infections.

David Lock

IIRC it was mentioned on a thead here Matt. One of the rare sensible threads too. Search?

David Lock

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthrea...hlight=cranial

that was one of them..........

MattW

Thanks, good memory David.

TBH it has been suggested by another parent. Our youngest has had a lot of ear infections, on one side. She has been checked out and her ear has formed properly and there is no lasting damage, it's a bit of a pain (no pun intended) as leading up to the "burst" she is understandably irritable and has trouble sleeping. Additionally she suffers from mild eczema although there is no family history. All symptoms that this 'other' child has experienced.

She is due to see the Doctor following up her latest ear infection ina week, and my wife is going to mention it.

Apparantly, it helps babies who have had a stressful birth. My wife had a planned section (very late) and although not stressful in terms of pushing and shoving, the little one came out screaming like a banshee, so maybe something in it.

boxst

Hello

My young daughter goes to one as she had some possible problems with her hearing and ear infections. Much to my surprise (I didn't want her to go) it actually seemed to do the trick and she has been much, much better.

Steve

MattW

Steve

How many sessions, and how much was the cost?

PM if you prefer.

Matt

OllyK

Sounds like quackery to me.

boxst

Hello Matt

She started off with a session every two weeks or so and now it is reduced to every 4-6 weeks. The cost is £25 per session.

Steve

MattW

How long is that for Steve?

Olly - My initial reaction I have to admit.

Mark Miwurdz

And so I thought but it does seem to work. After 2 unsuccessful rounds of grommet tubes for severe glue ear, my daughter was left with an option to have T tubes fitted to leave the eardrum open until the infection had cleared up. The risk with T tubes is that they can permanently scar the ear drum sometimes to the point that a skin graft is required.

Before committing her to that operation, we gave the cranial massage a go and it definitely helped. She was 8 or 9 at the time and I gather the benefits are even greater in younger children due to the lack of permanent fusion between the plates that make up the skull.

As it happens, her glue ear was so chronic, further surgery was the only answer.

You've got nothing to lose - I'd give it a shot and I am Mr Sceptical.

Cheers
Kav

boxst

About a year or so. She doesn't just manipulate her head, but her neck and upper back as well.

As I said, I don't believe in such things, but my daughter is nearly three and it was said she needed an operation as she was having problems hearing. We decided to try this, and she doesn't need the operation anymore. Now, whether it is just that she 'grew out of it' or this helped who knows.

Steve

OllyK

And this of course, is the propblem with anecdotal evidence. It seemed to work in your case, although it could have been other factors or it just cured itself. We'll never no for sure.

The point in the wiki article that got me was that osteopaths couldn't agree amongst themselves if it works or not. Add that to the fact that the philosophy behind chiropractic and osteopathy are both a bit on the whacky side and I'd be asking a whole load of questions first.

I don't deny that the manipulation of joints by both groups can have a positive effect, but whether that is better than placebo, tea and sympathy or what a good physio can do I couldn't say. You also need to be careful that, with spine manipulation they can do more harm than good.

OllyK

An oft used phrase by the less orthodox medical practioners, and it isn't quite true. You're certainly going to be paying out cash, whether it works or not and if they recommend you stop taking any prescribed medication, they could be doing you an awful lot more harm.

If you want to delve in to alt med, consult with your GP first. Also let your alt med practictioner know what regular treatment you are getting to ensure they don't give you something that could conflict. Be aware ailments do get better on their own - the vast majority do, compare the time taken to recover on alt med, versus estimates with no medication!

OllyK

First hand experience is irrelevant. DBPC testing however speaks volumes. Without out that, you are just assuming it worked, when it could have been any number of other factors, as they were not controlled, you'll never know.

As I said, if you want to try these things, that's your choice, just go in with your eyes open, do some reading and be aware of the risks. In some case they are negligeable, in others they are potentially fatal. The skull bones in a young child have not fused and over enthusiatic manipulation could cuase catastrophic effects. In your case there were no apparent detrimental effects.

OllyK

I haven't rubbished it, I have merely put forward the other POV that it is not based on well established and tested medicine, that there are potentially dangerous effects from this and that people should consult with a GP FIRST. I am all for choice, even if you choose something that is detramental to you, I do however think people should get the facts and both sides of the story. You single anecdotal case does NOT make it either safe or effective in the wider context.

I don't have to prove anything, I'm not claiming it works - that is your claim and your duty to prove. I'm not even claiming it doesn't work, outright, just that people excercise some caution and be aware of what is involved.

Oh and there are people who lecture around the world that they are months away from delivering water powered cars and other free energy machines. It doesn't however mean that they are right. You are appealing to popularity and authority.

You probably won't be interested in the following articles, but others may want to keep an open mind
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../cranial2.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/search/web...ial+osteopathy

Mark Miwurdz

Not my experience at all. It sounds like you may have had your @rse bitten through a bad episode? Or are you more cynical than me?

Cheers
Kav

OllyK

Isn't this what I have just been saying? I was just providing the other POV, you think it's great, scientific studies don't confirm that.

I didn't rubbish anything, I pointed out that anecdotes are of little value scientifically. You cannot prove that the cranial manipulation was what provided the improvement. You assume it did as improvements occured within a relatively close time span of the treatment. Now it may have had an effect, but equally it may have been spontaneous remission, the point is we will never know in your case. Some people are happy to accept anecdotes and that's fine, others prefer scientific evidence, for the latter groups I was providing the information. Why are you so worried about people seeing the results of the scientific studies in to this area?

OllyK

Not cynical, just sceptical of alternative medicines and therapies that fail to show the "claimed" effects when they are tested under controlled conditions. Also of concern, although less so is the ridiculous explanations that some of these alt meds have for why they think their remedy works.

There are plenty of cases of alt med harming people, more often indirectly, but also direclty. Look around quackwatch and also do some reading on homeopathic treatment of AIDS and Cancer in Pakistan.

OllyK

Of course that's true when you are an expert in a given field and why they call doctors to give evidence of medical injuries and not other people with the same or similar conditions.

It's obvious you enjoyed it. It's one of those things that will have a degree of tea & sympathy effect as well as placebo and a general calming and relaxing one. I just doubt it does anything more than that, and at the moment, science agrees.

OllyK

This is where you are starting to get in to pseudo science and quackery. Which bones? What age was your son? How do you know the bones were jarred and were subsequently un-jarred? Did you see before and after X-rays, was there a visible lump that has now gone? Or did the osteopath tell you?

Again - what do you mean by visual - the shape of his head changed?

Observations are an essential part of science, they are the first step. You just seemed to have jumped from Observation to Conclusion and missed out hypothesis, experimentation and theory. Your personal experience, is personal to you and important to you, but cannot be extapolted to a generalisation.

Do I live by theory or practice? Do you mean scientific theory, in which case yes, or colloquial theory, in which case no. A scientific theory is not a "guess" is a resoned explanation for the observed events based on repeated experimentation. I don't "take people's word for it", unless I know them to be an expert on the subject area, on matters that I consider important.

jbryant

Hi Bravo - Glad to hear that the therapy went well. Sounds as though you had a similarly miraculous experience with one of these quacks to ourselves. My wife's and my own sanity were doubtless saved using these unproved quack methods and the laying on of hands, not to mention the huge increase in quality of life for a very distressed and continually upset young boy.

At a few months old, my son was sleeping for no more than a couple of hours at a time. Not only did he sleep properly for the first time the night following the initial consulation and therapy session, but every night following (and also following the exact pattern that was explained to us by our very own miracle worker - some powers indeed)

If this is quack, I'll take more of it, please. Although at the end of our collective tether by the point this was happening, I'd happily recommend cranial osteopathy to anyone with a similar problem after a problem ventouse delivery. Obviously it's their kid so they must go into the venture with the understanding that they check up on it themselves first - I'm no expert. It just worked for us.

OK Lots of sarcastic comments, but personal experience has converted me from a cynic into a 'believer.' The good thing about posts like these is that both sides of the argument can be discussed constructively. Something that is recognised by some personnel in the medical profession (such as the midwives who later told us they wished this treatment was available for all ventouse deliveries because of the amazing results, which would have saved us months of misery) is brought to the forefront so that it can properly researched. Then I am under no doubt that the fabulous benefits can really benefit the lives of patients and parents alike. I am only discussing this from a perspective of young ventouse babies as this is the only experience I have with my 'little conehead' boy.

Bye for now - I'm just off now to pay all my money to some fantastic religious zealot I've seen on Channel 2354 because he's the only one who can save me from the end of the world in his mighty flying pyramid starship.

Joolz

OllyK

There are 45 bones that make up the skull, some ossify and fuse so there are 28 by adulthood. The main parts however, are 2 frontal bones, 2 parietal bones and 1 occipital bone.

It's sounding like an issue with the Coronal Suture, would that be correct?

The fusing varies, but the posterior fontanelle usually closes by eight weeks, but the anterior fontanelle can remain up to eighteen months. I'm not going to probe too much, but you can see where this could go.

What did the doctor / midwife say at the time of delivery? What course of action did they propose?

I note you said "My eldest had many sessions..." Have you considered that the number of sessions required may have corresponded to the natural recovery period?

Yes, it's an alternative to forcep delivery, and while it isn't without risks, it would on the whole seem to be preferable.

So the "behavioural" changes rather than the visual ones were immediate?

I could speculate about all of this, however I am trying to remain relatively sensitive. As I said, the experieince was personal to you, and while you may have been fortunate, scientific study does not show the same degree of efficacy as you observed.