Benetton & Schumacher rumbled?
20 February 2007, 09:25 AM
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Benetton & Schumacher rumbled?
Richard Williams: Guardian Unlimited
>>> Small ad may be formula one's smoking gun <<<
Towards the back of this month's Motor Sport magazine a company based in America announces the sale of a Benetton B194 formula one car, the very machine with which Michael Schumacher won three grands prix on his way to the 1994 world championship, running Damon Hill off the road in the final round at Adelaide in order to secure the title.
Clearly the dents from that notorious encounter have been straightened out but the car is otherwise advertised as being in original condition - "exactly as 'in the day'," to quote the ad, a statement reflected in the asking price of just under half a million quid.
What is really interesting, however, is the information that the originality of the car's condition extends to certain electronic features - specifically including traction control, a "driver aid" outlawed under the 1994 regulations.
This, it may be remembered, was the season when there was a lot of fuss over whether Benetton were breaking the technical regulations in order to achieve a competitive advantage. Ayrton Senna, who perished in the third race of the season while trying to stay ahead of Schumacher, certainly believed something naughty was going on. And here, all these years later, is grand prix racing's equivalent of the smoking gun. Is it too late for Hill to demand his title back?
>>> Small ad may be formula one's smoking gun <<<
Towards the back of this month's Motor Sport magazine a company based in America announces the sale of a Benetton B194 formula one car, the very machine with which Michael Schumacher won three grands prix on his way to the 1994 world championship, running Damon Hill off the road in the final round at Adelaide in order to secure the title.
Clearly the dents from that notorious encounter have been straightened out but the car is otherwise advertised as being in original condition - "exactly as 'in the day'," to quote the ad, a statement reflected in the asking price of just under half a million quid.
What is really interesting, however, is the information that the originality of the car's condition extends to certain electronic features - specifically including traction control, a "driver aid" outlawed under the 1994 regulations.
This, it may be remembered, was the season when there was a lot of fuss over whether Benetton were breaking the technical regulations in order to achieve a competitive advantage. Ayrton Senna, who perished in the third race of the season while trying to stay ahead of Schumacher, certainly believed something naughty was going on. And here, all these years later, is grand prix racing's equivalent of the smoking gun. Is it too late for Hill to demand his title back?
20 February 2007, 10:30 AM
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Mmm I see your point, but who cares really ?? 1994 ?? D Hill was crap anyway, and looking at him now, with that mass of long grey hair, well, who cares x 2.
As much as everyone hates Schumacher, he did more for F1 than anyone. Fans would watch to see him win, other's would watch to hopefully see him loose. F1 was Schumacher. The fact that the rules / reg were changed to stop him winning, to try to stop F1 being a one horse race, shows you the effect him and Ferrari had.
Again, can you honesty say Hill would have such an effect if he had won that race / championship ? Err no.
Now Michael's gone, so who now stands out ? No one. They are all useless. There are no personalities left now. Jenson Button ? everyone keeps going on about him being the next champsion, but to be honest, he doesnt seem to be achieving this really.
Just my thoughts, not worth a pot to pi55 in, but hey, Im at work and bored :-)
SBK
As much as everyone hates Schumacher, he did more for F1 than anyone. Fans would watch to see him win, other's would watch to hopefully see him loose. F1 was Schumacher. The fact that the rules / reg were changed to stop him winning, to try to stop F1 being a one horse race, shows you the effect him and Ferrari had.
Again, can you honesty say Hill would have such an effect if he had won that race / championship ? Err no.
Now Michael's gone, so who now stands out ? No one. They are all useless. There are no personalities left now. Jenson Button ? everyone keeps going on about him being the next champsion, but to be honest, he doesnt seem to be achieving this really.
Just my thoughts, not worth a pot to pi55 in, but hey, Im at work and bored :-)
SBK
20 February 2007, 10:45 AM
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I'd argue the effect of Ferrari & Schumacher was more to do with cash. Even put together it took them a LONG time before they were consistently winning championships.
Schumacher was the best driver by far but Hill was far from crap -- all F1 drivers are gods of car control (yes, even Aguri Suzuki
) and winning a championship puts Hill waaaaayyyy above the "average" F1 driver.
I'd also argue about Schumacher's "personality" -- he didn't, and doesn't, have one.
Bored at work too
Schumacher was the best driver by far but Hill was far from crap -- all F1 drivers are gods of car control (yes, even Aguri Suzuki
) and winning a championship puts Hill waaaaayyyy above the "average" F1 driver.I'd also argue about Schumacher's "personality" -- he didn't, and doesn't, have one.
Bored at work too
20 February 2007, 11:20 AM
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Mmm I see your point, but who cares really ?? 1994 ?? D Hill was crap anyway, and looking at him now, with that mass of long grey hair, well, who cares x 2.
As much as everyone hates Schumacher, he did more for F1 than anyone. Fans would watch to see him win, other's would watch to hopefully see him loose. F1 was Schumacher. The fact that the rules / reg were changed to stop him winning, to try to stop F1 being a one horse race, shows you the effect him and Ferrari had.
Again, can you honesty say Hill would have such an effect if he had won that race / championship ? Err no.
Now Michael's gone, so who now stands out ? No one. They are all useless. There are no personalities left now. Jenson Button ? everyone keeps going on about him being the next champsion, but to be honest, he doesnt seem to be achieving this really.
Just my thoughts, not worth a pot to pi55 in, but hey, Im at work and bored :-)
SBK
As much as everyone hates Schumacher, he did more for F1 than anyone. Fans would watch to see him win, other's would watch to hopefully see him loose. F1 was Schumacher. The fact that the rules / reg were changed to stop him winning, to try to stop F1 being a one horse race, shows you the effect him and Ferrari had.
Again, can you honesty say Hill would have such an effect if he had won that race / championship ? Err no.
Now Michael's gone, so who now stands out ? No one. They are all useless. There are no personalities left now. Jenson Button ? everyone keeps going on about him being the next champsion, but to be honest, he doesnt seem to be achieving this really.
Just my thoughts, not worth a pot to pi55 in, but hey, Im at work and bored :-)
SBK
You may well be one who thinks that winning is all, despite the manner of doing it. In your book perhap's, cheating is fine if you can get away with it. There is still room in this world for good sportsmanship however, and not brake testing competitors deliberately or faking a loss of control at Monte Carlo to stop your closest competitor Alonso from gettiing pole position on the last lap of practice. Schumacher was an outstanding driver, it is a pity he should ruin his reputation by always being remembered as a person quite prepared to cheat to get his way.
If it is true that the Bennetton was illegally using traction control, then I think that the championship should be re-listed in Damon Hill's name.
Like his father, who was one of the great personalities of F1 as well as successful as a World Champion in his own rightl, Damon Hill was a sportsman in the real sense of the word as well as a World Champion too.
To try to get a rise out of him by criticising his appearance also is a very poor and cheap attempt and tells us a lot about your character.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 20 February 2007 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Typo!
20 February 2007, 11:39 AM
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For the love of God not this again. When will the British press let this go.
OK firstly it was never disputed that traction control sofwtare was on the car, what was disputed was whether it was used in any way. Now as it is quite plain that you can hear the traction control working on an F1 car it would be safe to assume that as it was never heard from the 1994 Benetton then its use must have been very limited if at all.
Secondly the whole Adelaide 1994 incident has become folklore as the day 'our Damon'
was run off the trackby the nasty Kraut. Well if you look at the incident without the slant of the biased and jingoistic British media you may draw a different conclusion. Here is a quote from someone who was actually there and who hasn't got a pathetic pro-Britsih/anti-German axe to grind:
Finally reagrdless of any of the above unless the car is bought by an F1 team or Microsoft I doubt very much whether they will even be able to start it up let alone find 'hidden' software and trace as to whether it was used or not.
Smoking gun? Damp squib more like.
OK firstly it was never disputed that traction control sofwtare was on the car, what was disputed was whether it was used in any way. Now as it is quite plain that you can hear the traction control working on an F1 car it would be safe to assume that as it was never heard from the 1994 Benetton then its use must have been very limited if at all.
Secondly the whole Adelaide 1994 incident has become folklore as the day 'our Damon'
was run off the trackby the nasty Kraut. Well if you look at the incident without the slant of the biased and jingoistic British media you may draw a different conclusion. Here is a quote from someone who was actually there and who hasn't got a pathetic pro-Britsih/anti-German axe to grind:
I speak as one who was as standing, in person, at the exit of that infamous corner in Adelaide '94, with a head on view of the entire scene. I also speak as one who went home and watched his video tape of the incident a hundred times over before I was sure of my opinion. Last of all, I speak as one who is not in any particularly strong sense of the word, a Micheal fan.
So muh fokelore and fiction has grown around that corner that I can no longer restrain myself.
MS slid wide and hit the wall on the outside of the track at the exit of the previous left-hander. This broke his right steering arm and should have been the end of his race and his championship.
He rejoined the track and - after much reefing at the wheel, followed something similar to the racing line into the following right hander. Damon, clearly having sensed that something was badly awry with the Benetton, dived to the inside in the extreme. When I say extreme, if you can find the on-car footage from the Williams, you will see that Damon's front right tyre actually head-butts the leading edge of the kerb. Not even close to a racing line or a realistic passing line.
At that point, Damon's car jinks very slightly back to the left and hits the REAR of the Benetton side pod, Damon's front left hooks Michael's rear right, and launches the Benetton into the barrier at the exit, effectively taking both cars out of the race.
Last time I checked, the rule of racing thumb was that if the car coming from behind struck the leading car behind the halfway point of the car, blame was apportioned to the trailing car.
My personal, subjective observation was, and remains; Michael made a mistake that should have cost him the world title. Daman made an even bigger mistake that cost him the world title. If you want to call that cheating, fine, go right ahead.
I might add for the benefit of those with a sketchy recollection of matters historical, that this was a year in which MS had looked like a tear-away winner early in the season. Then, at the British GP, the FIA invoked a rule which had never before, nor has ever been since, utilied - passing on the warm-up lap. This not only resulted in the exclusion of Schumacher from the results of that evert, but a few races of suspension as well.
Additionally, despite MS winning at Spa, he was DQ-ed because his "plank" was measured undersize. The fact that he had spun across a kerb and that fragements of the offending section of said plank were recovered from said kerb, didn't sway the FIA on the day.
All of which is to say that the fact that the 1994 title had come down to Adelaide was a rather political matter. Such it seems, is the stock in trade of the FIA.
One final point on 1994. At the opening round in Brazil, both Michael and Senna lapped Damon. Draw your own conclusions.
Interesting to note that on each of the occassions in the following '95 season when Damon and Micheal collided, it was Damon who hit Michael from behind.
So muh fokelore and fiction has grown around that corner that I can no longer restrain myself.
MS slid wide and hit the wall on the outside of the track at the exit of the previous left-hander. This broke his right steering arm and should have been the end of his race and his championship.
He rejoined the track and - after much reefing at the wheel, followed something similar to the racing line into the following right hander. Damon, clearly having sensed that something was badly awry with the Benetton, dived to the inside in the extreme. When I say extreme, if you can find the on-car footage from the Williams, you will see that Damon's front right tyre actually head-butts the leading edge of the kerb. Not even close to a racing line or a realistic passing line.
At that point, Damon's car jinks very slightly back to the left and hits the REAR of the Benetton side pod, Damon's front left hooks Michael's rear right, and launches the Benetton into the barrier at the exit, effectively taking both cars out of the race.
Last time I checked, the rule of racing thumb was that if the car coming from behind struck the leading car behind the halfway point of the car, blame was apportioned to the trailing car.
My personal, subjective observation was, and remains; Michael made a mistake that should have cost him the world title. Daman made an even bigger mistake that cost him the world title. If you want to call that cheating, fine, go right ahead.
I might add for the benefit of those with a sketchy recollection of matters historical, that this was a year in which MS had looked like a tear-away winner early in the season. Then, at the British GP, the FIA invoked a rule which had never before, nor has ever been since, utilied - passing on the warm-up lap. This not only resulted in the exclusion of Schumacher from the results of that evert, but a few races of suspension as well.
Additionally, despite MS winning at Spa, he was DQ-ed because his "plank" was measured undersize. The fact that he had spun across a kerb and that fragements of the offending section of said plank were recovered from said kerb, didn't sway the FIA on the day.
All of which is to say that the fact that the 1994 title had come down to Adelaide was a rather political matter. Such it seems, is the stock in trade of the FIA.
One final point on 1994. At the opening round in Brazil, both Michael and Senna lapped Damon. Draw your own conclusions.
Interesting to note that on each of the occassions in the following '95 season when Damon and Micheal collided, it was Damon who hit Michael from behind.
Smoking gun? Damp squib more like.
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20 February 2007, 12:14 PM
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Leslie,
My character? mmmm good point, Im a lying, cheating, swearing, useless good for nothing. But, all that to one side, Hill is useless and looks a ponce.
His father ? whats that got to do with it ? I vaguely remember him, but so what if I cant, Im talking about Hill and Schumacher.
Love him or hate him, Schumacher made F1. There were times I disliked him, and times I liked him.
As to looks ? if I want to judge someone by that, then so be it. Its a free world.
SBK
My character? mmmm good point, Im a lying, cheating, swearing, useless good for nothing. But, all that to one side, Hill is useless and looks a ponce.
His father ? whats that got to do with it ? I vaguely remember him, but so what if I cant, Im talking about Hill and Schumacher.
Love him or hate him, Schumacher made F1. There were times I disliked him, and times I liked him.
As to looks ? if I want to judge someone by that, then so be it. Its a free world.
SBK
20 February 2007, 12:41 PM
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Hill was under rated during his time, however Schumacher was in a league of his own though, even better than Senna (not as exciting to watch though if that makes sense), just a shame that cheating has plagued him throughout all of his F1 career. To be honest from what I remember about Adelaide, the in car footage clearly shows Schumacher turning in, and to be honest somebody who is there is not gonna see much due to the speed in which the incident happens.
20 February 2007, 12:53 PM
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In what was a few seconds at most I doubt very much whether he had the ability to think 'Ah yes I will ram him of the track', but never mind we will all believe what we (and the scum we call the British press) want to believe.
Anyway as pointed out Damon should have hung back instead of trying to force his way past. Still easy to say that in the comfort of one's armchair.
FWIW Damon was actually a very good driver, not in Schumacher's class admittedly, but then not many were.
20 February 2007, 01:05 PM
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How many championships actually involved Michael cheating to win?
Even if those were discounted, he would still be the most successful racing driver ever.
I really don't understand why F1 has people that hate to see someone, who is far better than anyone else, winning so many times. He would have arguably won even more championships if he hadn't moved to Ferrari. Why is that boring?
Lastly, Senna and Prost both used the same tactic as Schumacher to win championships (ramming each other off the track), but it is virtually never mentioned. I wonder why...
Even if those were discounted, he would still be the most successful racing driver ever.
I really don't understand why F1 has people that hate to see someone, who is far better than anyone else, winning so many times. He would have arguably won even more championships if he hadn't moved to Ferrari. Why is that boring?
Lastly, Senna and Prost both used the same tactic as Schumacher to win championships (ramming each other off the track), but it is virtually never mentioned. I wonder why...
20 February 2007, 01:07 PM
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Senna is dead, thats why, turns some people in to some sort of demi god.
He's became more popular after his death, I thought he was a **** before he died.
He's became more popular after his death, I thought he was a **** before he died.
20 February 2007, 01:10 PM
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I agree Hill should have hung back as he was so much faster that he would have got past somewhere, but you look at Schumi's record for "incidents" and for a driver of his quality they have all been "basic mistakes" also an F1 driver has to be able to react well within a few seconds otherwise they wouldnt stay on track.
I agree with Damon being a very good driver, just look at his performance in the arrows at hungary when he had the car at the front when on paper it shouldnt have been. (still actually reckon they fixed the qualifying times there though)
I do actually miss the old Adelaide track
I agree with Damon being a very good driver, just look at his performance in the arrows at hungary when he had the car at the front when on paper it shouldnt have been. (still actually reckon they fixed the qualifying times there though)
I do actually miss the old Adelaide track
20 February 2007, 01:16 PM
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I agree Schumi is the best there has been, and to be honest this season will probably be dull without him in it, he would still be the most successful driver without his little incidents, but he has a tarnished reputation and I think he will always have that stigma attached.
As for Senna and Prost, they both did it to each other so people (me anyway) see it as Karma, what comes around goes around, whereas with Schumi it was only him doing things (and it didnt always work)
Off topic slightly but does anyone miss the turbo charged f1 cars? it used to be great seeing the flames out the back and the car just disappearing.
As for Senna and Prost, they both did it to each other so people (me anyway) see it as Karma, what comes around goes around, whereas with Schumi it was only him doing things (and it didnt always work)
Off topic slightly but does anyone miss the turbo charged f1 cars? it used to be great seeing the flames out the back and the car just disappearing.
20 February 2007, 01:22 PM
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Leslie 
well said
Personally I think Schui was a fantastic driver - who was badly let down by his "tactics" on several occasions. Let's not forget he also tried the same manouver on Villeneuve but with rather less sucessful results. He pushed F1 and it's rules and regulations to their very limits - remember when he won a race in the pit lane? Or the time he and Barichello swapped places at the end of a race...?
Eddie Irvine said it well when he said that being a team mate of Schui was "like being hit over the head with a cricket bat - repeatedly"
I think Schui heralded the movement of F1 into a new era - and Damon was very much of the old era. Being sporting and wanting to win simply isn't enough - one needs to be ruthless, selfish and calculating to get to the top these days. As well as being a fantastic driver, SChui had all these "qualities"
IMHO Irvine and Hill were the last people who had an personality in F1 - these days it's far too clinical. As someone who can no only remember Damon Hill racing - but also Jackie Stewart, James Hunt and the whole Hesketh era - I have to say, today's F1 really fails to excite in the same way. The racing my be entertaining on occasion, but somehow the passion seems to be missing.
well saidPersonally I think Schui was a fantastic driver - who was badly let down by his "tactics" on several occasions. Let's not forget he also tried the same manouver on Villeneuve but with rather less sucessful results. He pushed F1 and it's rules and regulations to their very limits - remember when he won a race in the pit lane? Or the time he and Barichello swapped places at the end of a race...?
Eddie Irvine said it well when he said that being a team mate of Schui was "like being hit over the head with a cricket bat - repeatedly"
I think Schui heralded the movement of F1 into a new era - and Damon was very much of the old era. Being sporting and wanting to win simply isn't enough - one needs to be ruthless, selfish and calculating to get to the top these days. As well as being a fantastic driver, SChui had all these "qualities"
IMHO Irvine and Hill were the last people who had an personality in F1 - these days it's far too clinical. As someone who can no only remember Damon Hill racing - but also Jackie Stewart, James Hunt and the whole Hesketh era - I have to say, today's F1 really fails to excite in the same way. The racing my be entertaining on occasion, but somehow the passion seems to be missing.
20 February 2007, 01:57 PM
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Having watched the incident on TV, and many times on video, whilst I would have to agree that Hill was far from blameless, he would not have been aware of the damage to Schumacher's car at that point and therefore had no option but to go for the gap.
Schumacher, however, would have known fine and well that he had sustained terminal damage and should never have been anywhere near the racing line in a stricken car.
Much like Monaco this year.
IIRC, Schumacher han clearly be seen checking his mirrors as he turned into the corner, and knew fine well that Hill would be there or thereabouts.
Whilst he didn't, technically, drive into Hill's car, he (with some difficulty) placed his where an incident would be unavoidable.
That still amounts to cheating in my book.
Schumacher, however, would have known fine and well that he had sustained terminal damage and should never have been anywhere near the racing line in a stricken car.
Much like Monaco this year.
IIRC, Schumacher han clearly be seen checking his mirrors as he turned into the corner, and knew fine well that Hill would be there or thereabouts.
Whilst he didn't, technically, drive into Hill's car, he (with some difficulty) placed his where an incident would be unavoidable.
That still amounts to cheating in my book.
20 February 2007, 02:14 PM
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In essence Schuamcher's incident at Jerez in 1997 for instance was simply a moment of (admittedly misguided) desperation whereas Senna walked to the grid at Suzuka that day knowing full well he was going to crash into Prost at the first corner and put both of them out of the race.
Up to you whether you think that is OK or not, but we certainly never had the same levels of condemnation of Senna in the UK that we did for Schumacher.
Anyway it's all history now and part of what makes F1 interesting.
20 February 2007, 02:35 PM
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Having watched the incident on TV, and many times on video, whilst I would have to agree that Hill was far from blameless, he would not have been aware of the damage to Schumacher's car at that point and therefore had no option but to go for the gap.
Schumacher, however, would have known fine and well that he had sustained terminal damage and should never have been anywhere near the racing line in a stricken car.
Much like Monaco this year.
IIRC, Schumacher han clearly be seen checking his mirrors as he turned into the corner, and knew fine well that Hill would be there or thereabouts.
Whilst he didn't, technically, drive into Hill's car, he (with some difficulty) placed his where an incident would be unavoidable.
That still amounts to cheating in my book.
Schumacher, however, would have known fine and well that he had sustained terminal damage and should never have been anywhere near the racing line in a stricken car.
Much like Monaco this year.
IIRC, Schumacher han clearly be seen checking his mirrors as he turned into the corner, and knew fine well that Hill would be there or thereabouts.
Whilst he didn't, technically, drive into Hill's car, he (with some difficulty) placed his where an incident would be unavoidable.
That still amounts to cheating in my book.
20 February 2007, 02:59 PM
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20 February 2007, 03:39 PM
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F1 - Turbo cars ! Werent they the ones with 1000bhp ?? The March cars ?? 6 wheelers ??
I had one of those on my scalextric !! Even that one was fast too. Used to race most of my friends, accept one. He had long hair, and was a ponce :-)
SBK
I had one of those on my scalextric !! Even that one was fast too. Used to race most of my friends, accept one. He had long hair, and was a ponce :-)
SBK
20 February 2007, 04:22 PM
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Hill had very good grounds for attempting the overtake. About half a second after this Shumacher turns in, sees Hill, straightens up, and then in his own true style turns in again.
I was actually giving Schumacher far to much of the benefit of the doubt in my post above.
He is, and always will be the best cheat F1 has ever known...
Last edited by ///\oo/\\\; 20 February 2007 at 04:31 PM.
20 February 2007, 04:48 PM
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Good driver, poor sportsman. When he's not winning by his own driving skill, he'll win by strategy from Ross, usually meaning he'll take a place or two in by pitting early/late, which to me is wrong as if you need to take places, do it on the track, and if he cannot win by those methods he'll resort to blatant and outright cheating.
The one sad thing about him not being in F1 is that quite a few of us won't have anyone to boo at when we attend races. Seems I was far, far from a lone at Montreal last year when he was booed during the drivers parade, in stark contrast to the massive cheers for Alonso and others.
Oh and I'm not anti Ferrari, I think Massa is rather good and I am very interested to see how the new pairing will go and if he'll shine now he's finally out of Schumacher's shadow.
The one sad thing about him not being in F1 is that quite a few of us won't have anyone to boo at when we attend races. Seems I was far, far from a lone at Montreal last year when he was booed during the drivers parade, in stark contrast to the massive cheers for Alonso and others.
Oh and I'm not anti Ferrari, I think Massa is rather good and I am very interested to see how the new pairing will go and if he'll shine now he's finally out of Schumacher's shadow.
20 February 2007, 04:51 PM
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Sorry ///\oo/\\\, but I still don't see it your way. I have just watched the onboard footage and Schumacher is on the racing line and well ahead of Hill when he turns in. The only thing wrong is if knows his car is damaged he shouldn't be on the racing line but that is another issue.
