Iraq - time to leave
#2
If you start a war based on lies, there is no end.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
#3
UK is now suffering substantial losses, 11 this month alone, and that doesnt take into account those who have been seriously injured and who may later die in hospitals etc...
US are taking heavy losses (9 killed yesterday)........but the war just goes on...with no particular aim or focus, just the usual cheesy rhetoric about liberating iraq and giving them the joys of another western backed disctatorship which will this time call itself the democratically elected government....
The British people are good folk on the whole...why is there no outcry over this new era of tyranny??
US are taking heavy losses (9 killed yesterday)........but the war just goes on...with no particular aim or focus, just the usual cheesy rhetoric about liberating iraq and giving them the joys of another western backed disctatorship which will this time call itself the democratically elected government....
The British people are good folk on the whole...why is there no outcry over this new era of tyranny??
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As the article points put the war is heading towards Iran vs. USA/UK and sadly Iraq will just be the battleground and the Iraqi insurgents the pawns manipuated by Iran.
There are really only two options, pull out or eventually go to war against Iran and sadly with Bush in power for a couple more years the latter looks inevitable.
And that will be the single biggest mistake by a world leader since a certain German marched into Poland
It looks grim for Iraq, its people and the world in general really.
Just to put it into context so far though, we lost more troops in the Falklands than we have in Iraq. Another conflict created for political purposes I might add, but of course we all look at Maggie with rose tinted spectacles.
There are really only two options, pull out or eventually go to war against Iran and sadly with Bush in power for a couple more years the latter looks inevitable.
And that will be the single biggest mistake by a world leader since a certain German marched into Poland
It looks grim for Iraq, its people and the world in general really.
Just to put it into context so far though, we lost more troops in the Falklands than we have in Iraq. Another conflict created for political purposes I might add, but of course we all look at Maggie with rose tinted spectacles.
Last edited by f1_fan; 29 April 2007 at 10:55 AM.
#6
As the article points put the war is heading towards Iran vs. USA/UK and sadly Iraq will just be the battleground and the Iraqi insurgents the pawns manipuated by Iran.
There are really only two options, pull out or eventually go to war against Iran and sadly with Bush in power for a couple more years the latter looks inevitable.
And that will be the single biggest mistake by a world leader since a certain German marched into Poland
It looks grim for Iraq, its people and the world in general really.
Just to put it into context so far though, we lost more troops in the Falklands than we have in Iraq. Another conflict created for political purposes I might add, but of course we all look at Maggie with rose tinted spectacles.
There are really only two options, pull out or eventually go to war against Iran and sadly with Bush in power for a couple more years the latter looks inevitable.
And that will be the single biggest mistake by a world leader since a certain German marched into Poland
It looks grim for Iraq, its people and the world in general really.
Just to put it into context so far though, we lost more troops in the Falklands than we have in Iraq. Another conflict created for political purposes I might add, but of course we all look at Maggie with rose tinted spectacles.
There is a world of difference between that and this latest conflict which was a unilateral attack by the USA with Billy's support for his own purposes and instituted in this country with a load of lies based on deliberately fudged intelligence both to us and to the House. It has led to the present dreadful situation and so many thousands of deaths of civilians particularly since the end of the war with no solution in sight. Our country is now a major terrorist target.
Maggie would never have got us into such a situation, neither would she have allowed this country to sink into the present depths of social depravity, presided over the death of the family, or our present subservience to the grossly corrupt organisation known as the Eu.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 29 April 2007 at 11:31 AM.
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If you start a war based on lies, there is no end.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
Givining military support, training was a big mistake, although at the time we were in a cold war with the Russians and this was seeen as a way of keeping them out - was with so many countries, lesser evil at the time.
Now it has come back to hunt us!
I do think we should withdraw as we are not seen as helping but as part of the problem, once we pull out there will be civil war, many will die and the country will settle down - eventually probably with a tyrannical leader/government so little will change.Whatever we do we will be critised for, getting rid of Saddam was a good thing, being lied to by out PM was not so good, not that he cares as i seem to remember he said he will answer to God - sounds like a religiousd fanatics answer and not dissimilar to some of our terrorist 'friends'!
Our troops have done a stand up job and aquitted themselves very well.
You cannot really do more of help this country IMHO. The indigenous population ate content blowing each other up over slight differences in their beliefs - the main one being that one lot belives Allah's descendants are also Gods and the others do not. Hardly worth blowing up civillians and killing each others kids over imho!
Get out of Iraq, concentrate our forces on Afganistan.
Do not invade countries for the wrong reasons (oil) and lie about it pretending it to be for the good of peace and to fight tyrants/terrorism.
If it was because of tyrants then we would get stuck into some of Africa's problems, agian the only time we do is when oil or something we want is involved.
Interestingly, the first use of chemical weapons was by Winstion Churchill against the Kurds in the 20's
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Margaret Thatcher had her faults just like anyone else in this world. Nevertheless she governed for the love of this country and her decision to recover the Falklands from the Argentinians was absolutely right especially since the attack was started by them and was done for the political purposes of a discredited general. Our lands were attacked and Maggie did correctly to defend them and the people of the Falklands who were under our protection. I speak as a serving memebr of the armed services at the time.
There is a world of difference between that and this latest conflict which was a unilateral attack by the USA with Billy's support for his own purposes and instituted in this country with a load of lies based on deliberately fudged intelligence both to us and to the House. It has led to the present dreadful situation and so many thousands of deaths of civilians particularly since the end of the war with no solution in sight. Our country is now a major terrorist target.
Maggie would never have got us into such a situation, neither would she have allowed this country to sink into the present depths of social depravity, presided over the death of the family, or our present subservience to the grossly corrupt organisation known as the Eu.
Les
There is a world of difference between that and this latest conflict which was a unilateral attack by the USA with Billy's support for his own purposes and instituted in this country with a load of lies based on deliberately fudged intelligence both to us and to the House. It has led to the present dreadful situation and so many thousands of deaths of civilians particularly since the end of the war with no solution in sight. Our country is now a major terrorist target.
Maggie would never have got us into such a situation, neither would she have allowed this country to sink into the present depths of social depravity, presided over the death of the family, or our present subservience to the grossly corrupt organisation known as the Eu.
Les
My comment was more to do with the fact that Maggie's government failed to heed the warning signs regarding the Falklands of which there were many until it was too late. If I was to be unkind I might suggest that she in part deliberately avoided the issue until the use of force was necessary as she knew it would go some way towards raising her popularity for a forthcoming election at a time when another Conservative victory was a long way from a foregone conculsion. Still I am sure that wouldn't have been the case
Anyway we are now well off topic so back to the matter in hand.
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I'm sure if a conflict over the second largest reserve of oil in the entire world came up, then Thatcher would have had no doubts about sending the boys to their deaths and even more so if it pleased Reagan.
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You cannot really do more of help this country IMHO. The indigenous population ate content blowing each other up over slight differences in their beliefs - the main one being that one lot belives Allah's descendants are also Gods and the others do not. Hardly worth blowing up civillians and killing each others kids over imho!
dear paul for a lad who is educated as u, u dont have a clue aboot sectarian history and islam, Allah doesnt have descendants, its the prophet mohammad peace be upon hims descendants, if my old thread wasnt deleted aboot the differences between shia and sunni im sure u would have learned something and others tae, i aint going typing it all up again just tae be deleted
in the last 1400 yrs theirs only been 3 or 4 major wars between shia and sunni and some lil skirmishes, not a big problem at all, once woz after the prophet pbuh;s death and one when temure the mongolian uzbek a sufi shia massacred the sunnis of india and arab states , one during the iraq and iran war and one current sectarian warfare
and a few skirmished during that time the king sheikh salahuddin ayubi a kurdish sunni united the shia and sunni tae fight the crusades and their woz peace for hundreds of yrs that time between them
aboot the difference i already wrote the history and it took me ages of my passionate time just so it can be deleted
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lads if their is an important book after the holy books its the books by noam chomsky
my hero if anyone has tae read a book in the next few days plz go and buy the following
Amazon.co.uk: Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance: Books: Noam Chomsky
and also john pilgers new rulers of the world
but plz try tae get the noam chomsky one, it is brilliant
guys a legend and a genius
my hero if anyone has tae read a book in the next few days plz go and buy the following
Amazon.co.uk: Hegemony or Survival : America's Quest for Global Dominance: Books: Noam Chomsky
and also john pilgers new rulers of the world
but plz try tae get the noam chomsky one, it is brilliant
guys a legend and a genius
#13
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Can't hardly understand any of the above two posts, since they are written in some sort of scottish/Asian/text speak.
Pity, as they are probably interesting
Moses, I've said this before: IF YOU WANT FOLK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WRITE, AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY, THEN FOR FEK'S SAKE WRITE IN ENGLISH!
Alcazar
Pity, as they are probably interesting
Moses, I've said this before: IF YOU WANT FOLK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WRITE, AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY, THEN FOR FEK'S SAKE WRITE IN ENGLISH!
Alcazar
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Can't hardly understand any of the above two posts, since they are written in some sort of scottish/Asian/text speak.
Pity, as they are probably interesting
Moses, I've said this before: IF YOU WANT FOLK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WRITE, AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY, THEN FOR FEK'S SAKE WRITE IN ENGLISH!
Alcazar
Pity, as they are probably interesting
Moses, I've said this before: IF YOU WANT FOLK TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WRITE, AND RESPOND ACCORDINGLY, THEN FOR FEK'S SAKE WRITE IN ENGLISH!
Alcazar
so i suggest u dae the same, live and let live
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dear paul for a lad who is educated as u, u dont have a clue aboot sectarian history and islam, Allah doesnt have descendants, its the prophet mohammad peace be upon hims descendants, if my old thread wasnt deleted aboot the differences between shia and sunni im sure u would have learned something and others tae, i aint going typing it all up again just tae be deleted
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nae worries, they would annihilate these people who r killing each other for not justice but for power and evil and domination
i just cant get it mate, it says clearly in the quran, killing a human is like killing all of humanity if its done coz of an evil intention and oppression and persecution
and it says clearly not tae fight in the way of the disbeliever but the way of Allah, u shall not kill the working people in the field, the women, children and eldery and non combatents and only those who persecute u or oppress u
this evil war of power and division is very sick indeed
very sad actually, i dont know how bush and blair sleep well at nite, saddam woz evil and now i understand places like iraq need someone like saddam but not evil but just and harsh sometimes
u know all these militants and terrorists in the world who go back tae their own countries and suicide bomb and cause anarchy , iraq woz their training ground and they learn new things and take them back home, thanks tae bush and blair and the neocons
this is whit ayman al zawahiri woz wishing for
can u remember paul before the invasion the christian iraqi leader and foreign minister tariq aziz said iraq will be the new vietnam for the americans and oor suburbs and streets will be the swamps and jungles
the americans laughed at that, only if they listened tae him
so sad tae see mate, theirs been a christian catholic sect the chaldeans or kaldeans from pure arab stock as the other muslim arabs been in iraq fae the beginning and even after they converted tae christianity 2000 yrs ago , lived in peace under saddam and now being persecuted by these evil milita;s and even the mandeans who go back near father abrahams time and r his followers, very sad indeed
#17
If you start a war based on lies, there is no end.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
Blair doesnt give a damn, he's one his way out, getting ready to make a load of cash from books/speeches etc.
I watched a video yesterday of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein back in 1983 (I think I spotted Chemical Ali in there too), this was when the US was giving weapons to Iraq to fight Iran. Oh how the tied has turned, now Iran is giving weapons to Iraq to fight the West.
I'm amazed how this war has been in the making for almost 25 years now and no one has been able to see the truth behind it all.
I hold Blair personally responsible for every one of our soldiers deaths and for all those that died on 7/7/05 for it is his decision alone that placed our nation firmly in the cross hairs of a Jihad.
Couldnt agree more fella. His actions have made the UK a top target.
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steve i dont know if u knew mate i will find the news articles for u, did u know initially the neocons and americans planned a devicise plan for sunni and shia if they were divided it will work intae their favour, but it all backfired and their both hitting them back
they thought they can turn one sect against another and the other will benefit them and their evil plans of domination
u should read noam chomsky and seymour hercsh's articles, their the kings of literature
#19
Oil aside
We must also remember.
That this war is a way of bush and his buddies to line their pockets with billions of US taxpayers money. A redistribution of wealth lets say!
1.They need a war
2.One is started
3.Many aspects which were once the preseve of the military are now placed out to private companies. Providing water, coms etc etc.
4.The tender process to acertain who is the most suitable company to receive the contracts is flimsy and a complete stich up.
5.The majority of the companies which win these contacts are Bushes and Rumsfelds buddies
6.The contacts are worth Billions. Billions are moved out of the US public purse into companies controlled by the Bush mafia
7.Redistribution of wealth complete - there is another more simple word for it!
The longer the war goes and more families torn apart - the more money the Bush mafia makes - its that simple.
All wars are corupt and about money (e.g. US business in bed with **** businesses in WW2). But you will be very hard pushed looking back through history to find a war quite as moraly corupt as the one currenly happening in Iraq.
Steve
We must also remember.
That this war is a way of bush and his buddies to line their pockets with billions of US taxpayers money. A redistribution of wealth lets say!
1.They need a war
2.One is started
3.Many aspects which were once the preseve of the military are now placed out to private companies. Providing water, coms etc etc.
4.The tender process to acertain who is the most suitable company to receive the contracts is flimsy and a complete stich up.
5.The majority of the companies which win these contacts are Bushes and Rumsfelds buddies
6.The contacts are worth Billions. Billions are moved out of the US public purse into companies controlled by the Bush mafia
7.Redistribution of wealth complete - there is another more simple word for it!
The longer the war goes and more families torn apart - the more money the Bush mafia makes - its that simple.
All wars are corupt and about money (e.g. US business in bed with **** businesses in WW2). But you will be very hard pushed looking back through history to find a war quite as moraly corupt as the one currenly happening in Iraq.
Steve
#20
steve i dont know if u knew mate i will find the news articles for u, did u know initially the neocons and americans planned a devicise plan for sunni and shia if they were divided it will work intae their favour, but it all backfired and their both hitting them back
they thought they can turn one sect against another and the other will benefit them and their evil plans of domination
u should read noam chomsky and seymour hercsh's articles, their the kings of literature
they thought they can turn one sect against another and the other will benefit them and their evil plans of domination
u should read noam chomsky and seymour hercsh's articles, their the kings of literature
#21
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mate if u dont mind gimme yer works address i will send u one of the best books hegemony and survival and also john pilgers mate
noams wrote over 40 books and also is the man who revoulotionized liguinstics
here bud
chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website
i luv this guy he is in the 80's bud i wish he woz the leader of the world and everyone thought like him
u know when a muslim loves someone and cares and respects the person all that comes oot of their mouths is , i hope the person becomes a muslim a true one who will be better than us
noam has a kind and humanist heart and mind, who serves humanity as a whole, as u may know he is fae a jewish background he gets a hard time fae american zionist jews but overall in the world most people luv him, he is a modern day hero mate
cheers bud
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steve mate check this vid aboot iraq by chomsky
Iraq War - Google Video
and one aboot the usa being terrified
YouTube - "The United States is Terrified" - Noam Chomsky
and bolivia tae baghdad a few parts
YouTube - Noam Chomsky: From Bolivia to Baghdad - (1/4)
Iraq War - Google Video
and one aboot the usa being terrified
YouTube - "The United States is Terrified" - Noam Chomsky
and bolivia tae baghdad a few parts
YouTube - Noam Chomsky: From Bolivia to Baghdad - (1/4)
#24
Les. I completely agree with you that once our territory was invaded we had every right to seize it back via whatever means we needed to use.
My comment was more to do with the fact that Maggie's government failed to heed the warning signs regarding the Falklands of which there were many until it was too late. If I was to be unkind I might suggest that she in part deliberately avoided the issue until the use of force was necessary as she knew it would go some way towards raising her popularity for a forthcoming election at a time when another Conservative victory was a long way from a foregone conculsion. Still I am sure that wouldn't have been the case
Anyway we are now well off topic so back to the matter in hand.
My comment was more to do with the fact that Maggie's government failed to heed the warning signs regarding the Falklands of which there were many until it was too late. If I was to be unkind I might suggest that she in part deliberately avoided the issue until the use of force was necessary as she knew it would go some way towards raising her popularity for a forthcoming election at a time when another Conservative victory was a long way from a foregone conculsion. Still I am sure that wouldn't have been the case
Anyway we are now well off topic so back to the matter in hand.
A great deal different to telling the JIC to produce a report supporting the likelyhood of WMD in Iraq when they had already said that their intelligence was sketchy and unreliable.
Les
#25
Looking at what we know for sure about the true characters of those involved in the whole business, I think you are being most unfair in comparing Maggie with the other bunch of lying toads!
Les
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The real crime here is that innocent people (not just the army) have to get killed for their politics. For every UK/US soldier that gets killed, how many innocent civilan Iraqis are getting killed?
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
#28
Of course the only reason that there is a British presence on the islands is because we took them by force in 1833 following the destruction of the Argentine settlement at Puerto Soledad by the Americans. Can't really blame the Argentines for wanting them back.
The real crime here is that innocent people (not just the army) have to get killed for their politics. For every UK/US soldier that gets killed, how many innocent civilan Iraqis are getting killed?
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
The real crime here is that innocent people (not just the army) have to get killed for their politics. For every UK/US soldier that gets killed, how many innocent civilan Iraqis are getting killed?
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Les
#29
18 June 1815 - Waterloo
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Rumsfeld was shaking hands with an allie at the time. They were in the process of losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers fighting Iran, who had just overthrown the Shar, and losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers too.
Now when the US/UK leave Iran will just walk in.......job done.
Oil prices sky high, Isreal under threat and who knows what next??????
Now when the US/UK leave Iran will just walk in.......job done.
Oil prices sky high, Isreal under threat and who knows what next??????
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The thing I find disgraceful is that the UK and US politicians (and public) are saying that we have to pull out now, without any regard to how that will leave the innocent cilivilians in the country.
For whatever reason it was strarted, legal or illegal (although I fail to see how a war can ever be legal), the fact is that we are ultimately resonsible for the mess over there. To pull out now would be completely irresponsible, and without the protection offered by the UK and US troops, how many more innocent people are going to be killed, and how many of them will turn into "terrorists" or become sympathetic to the terrorist cause after being abandoned to their fate.
It's one hell of a mess
For whatever reason it was strarted, legal or illegal (although I fail to see how a war can ever be legal), the fact is that we are ultimately resonsible for the mess over there. To pull out now would be completely irresponsible, and without the protection offered by the UK and US troops, how many more innocent people are going to be killed, and how many of them will turn into "terrorists" or become sympathetic to the terrorist cause after being abandoned to their fate.
It's one hell of a mess