Maz

iTrader: (34)

American political machinery in full swing.

daddyscoob

Not a fan of Mr Bush but geezer who made this film IMO is a tw*t. Someone could make the same **** about him if they were sad enough to be bothered. Woud recommend doing anything except being taken in by this crap

dpb

oh dear

Matteeboy

Interesting and pretty shocking.
I knew the USA was/is the World no.1 Rogue State but add a load of corruption in too...

Worst thing was seeing Execs rubbing their hands together in glee at the "opportunities" the war presents to them.

warrenm2

Did you get that from the BBC or did your Guardian reading friends tip you off to it?

L33_WRX

thought it was interesting - didn't know much about all the history to Bush but don't trust the bloke

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Only two things of value to be gleamed out of that documentary:

1) If you sleep with dogs you wake up with fleas! USA Foreign policy *really* needs to remember this saying!!!

2) It's very easy to make George bush look like a bit, er, vacant.

Matteeboy

Sorry, I grew up with my own brain.
The USA bombs oil rich nations until they are obliterated then moved on. Iran is next.

Geezer

Neither, he probably got it from the fact nearly all the troubles in the world over the last 50 years have been caused by, or made worse by the US.

Geezer

warrenm2

Well try using it rather than regurgitating stupid propoganda. Painting the US as a rogue state is just leftie marxist claptrap. The US is a country that fights for its freedom and the freedom of others, including the UK. Tough **** if countrys like North Korea and Iraq are in the firing line. Theres a reason for that, its cos they're totalitarian fvckups that want to impose their views on the rest of the world. And before you say thats what the US does, do you honestly believe that the US is less free than Iran? Does the US go around promising to exterminate a whole country? Is the US occupying Korea, Somalia, Grenada, Vietnam or any other place its been involved in a conflict. No. Wake up and realise that freedom has to be fought for sometimes, and the US is prepared to do it

warrenm2

As opposed to Russia or China say, who are all goodness and light and just want to help their fellow men, and dont interfere themselves, like maybe invading say Hungary or Czechoslovakia or Afghanistan or Tibet.

If you beleive its all down to the US then you are a fool

Holy Ghost

**

a very balanced comment. how on earth could any conflict hotspots have been created by totalitarian saints like USSR and china standing up for their rights in places like hungary, czechoslovakia, korea, afghanistan, tibet, the middle east and most of sub-saharan africa? could the soviet-backed and armed egyptians and syrians *really* have tried to destroy israel in 1973? and those american ICBMs in cuba! tsk tsk.

six of one ...

Holy Ghost

**

sorry warren, you got there first. i wasn't paying attention ...

Matteeboy

Okay then you brainwashed Republican, what have 650,000 Afghans and Iraqis actually done WRONG then? THe majority of those are civilian - How have they threatened the US's (or our) freedom?
Come on, I need evidence, not patronization and regurgitated clap trap.

PeteBrant

Jesus, you really have swallowed it all hook line and sinker, haven't you. Don't you feel the need to question these actions?

You're comment about Korea et al wanting to impose thier will on the rest of the world, whilst the US are completely justified in doing the same thing is very, very funny.

Anyway, back to farenheit 911

In this film, Michael Moore managed to make me feel sorry for George Bush, and for that I will never forgive him.
His tactics are laughable - He is as much of a reason to hate the left, as George Bush is to hate the right.

Holy Ghost

**

before the fur flies, can i just point out that the BMA's combined iraqi combatant and civilian fatality figures you quote are not based on recorded fact, merely extrapolated from sample data and multiplied nationwide by a civilian organisation with no prior experience of battlefield assessment. they aren't reliable and according to more reasoned sources [go google], are out of whack by as much as a factor of 10.

so ... game on!

warrenm2

Great minds and all that

warrenm2

Unlike Mr high and mighty patronising leftie sub marxist brant, maybe YOU need to swallow the facts of life. Not saying the US is totally 100% innocent of everything it is charged with, but in an imperfect world they are no where near the top of "rogue states" as some have suggested

I covered that already

Maz

iTrader: (34)

The premise for invading Iraq was that it was a clear and immediate threat to both the UK and the US thus giving mandate for military action. Subsequent evidence has shown that this was not the case, it may be cynical of me to assume that the oil fields and unfinished business by Bush senior was a much bigger reason. Your own assertions about the various regimes are only based on what you have been spoon fed by the various media, the US isn't any any less of a threat than any other regime. You're right the US isn't occupying Somalia, Vietnam and Grenada because it doesn't serve any interest. They wouldn't dare invade North Korea because it actually does possess WMD. You're right the US is prepared to fight, for itself and Israel nobody else.

warrenm2

Yes thanks for that. The Russians invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan were peace loving liberations of the oppresed workers, freeing them, and giving them a life of eternal bliss and anyone saying otherwise is a Murdoch brainwashed Righty! Get real

Holy Ghost

**

i don't thing one has to be spoon-fed to recognise that ahmedinijad in iran is crazy as a box of frogs, a swivel-eyed loony at the head of a theocratic autocracy who wears bad jackets and wants the big glowing stick so he can threaten - and maybe one day have - himself an all-jewish cook-out.

or that dim sum ***** in north korea is an elvis-obsessed alcoholic who has quite literally enslaved an entire nation on the yoke of one rule for me and one rule for you.

or that vladimir putin is russia's new emergent hard man who will sanction the state murder of his opponents and wants to re-establish his nation as a world superpower. at what cost you might ask?

ours and the US government are far from perfect - but i know where i'd prefer to live.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Similarly I can make my own mind up about the US thanks.

Geezer

Well, Hungary was actually a satellite of the Soviet Union, so in effect they were quelling a rebellion. Not excusing it, but then again the Soviets never tried to fool anyone that they were fighting for World Peace either.

The Czechs were the same.

Afghanistan? Not an invasion. Try reading some history instead of the media, it's quite enlightening. The Afghan government asked the Soviets for military help to stop insurgency by the warlords. Not an invasion, but an invitation. Maybe the use of 'inv' at the beginning of both words confused you.......

China has annexed some terrotories that were traditionally (albeit questionably) theirs to claim.

Outside of that, please name one country that was not on their borders that the Soviets or Chinese invaded.

Now, onto your beloved US.

Conveniently forgot various German scientists involvement in **** war crimes to give them an edge against the Communists

Invaded Korea to stem Communism

Tried to invade Cuba to stop Communism

Got involved in the biggest military operation and disaster in their history in Vietnam - to stop Communnism

Supplied arms to OBL to fight communism, and try to overturn a government which had been elected if I remember correctly

Supplied arms to Saddam Hussein to help them fight Iran, another enemy they had made. The fact that Hussein was a known criminal and had committed terrible human rights abuses didn't seem to bother them.

Invaded Afghanistan on the pretext of getting OBL. Never really had a chance of getting him, but hey, they removed another anti-american administration.

Invaded Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. Well we all know that one. Oh they have loads of oil

Support Israel, no matter what they do, even though many of the actions of Israel have been deemed illegal but they can ignore UN resolutions, because the US backs them.

You have all their dealing in Central America, contra arms scandal, the list goes on

Hell, they only entered WWII because the Japs hit Pearl Harbour! Before that they were happy to sell us arms, not for altruistic reasons mind, but for good hard cash! I doubt they would have entered the war just for 'freedom'.

Oh I forgot all the money that the IRA received from US funding that the govt refused to stop.

Fighting for freedom? Gimme a break!!!

Geezer

PeteBrant

Aww thanks

I don't think they are anywhere near the top of the list of Rogue States. I just think that sometimes the US needs to be held to account for its actions, and not followed blindy with full backing.

They certainly aren't the paragons of justice and all that is right that you make them out to be.

Holy Ghost

Conveniently forgot various German scientists involvement in **** war crimes to give them an edge against the Communists

Supplied arms to Saddam Hussein to help them fight Iran, another enemy they had made.

Geezer[/QUOTE]

**

just on a point of order: the US, USSR and Britain shared hitler's rocket and avanced weapons scientists between them. there was in fact a hell-for-leather race, particularly in czechoslovakia to capture adolf's skoda 'skunkworks' outside prague. the russians were desperate to get their hands on hitler's uranium supply - and did - as they already knew about the manhattan project and an emerging nuclear gap.

when you say arms to saddam, his key armourer's were in fact the USSR (armour, aircraft, light arms), france (aircraft), italy (x1 naval vessel), france and germany (phosgene, mustard and nerve gas) and france again (x2 two nuclear reactors). the UK supplied hard currency - around £125m, the US satellite intel for the war against iran and there's evidence to suggest that both the US and UK passed him WMD technology for nerve agents. to say that saddam was supplier-agnostic would be about right.

have you ever seen a member of the republican guard carrying an M16, SLR or SA80? or driving an M48, M60 or Chieftain tank? or an iraqi pilot flying a phantom, a hawk, an F16 or an F5. the answer to all these is no.

where does this leave us? many hands are dirty here: but it's not just, or mostly, the US. and you have to place this in the context of the time and the iran/iraq war. saddam, at the time, was a violent secular arab hard man (marginally preferable to us over a religious nut-job ayatollah khomeini) who had not yet descended into the depths of genocide and total tyranny. that's realpolitik, shades of grey, man. always has been, always will be.

FlightMan

No, but the IRANIANS do have a squadron of F-14's.


Holy Ghost[/quote]

have you ever seen a member of the republican guard carrying an M16, SLR or SA80? or driving an M48, M60 or Chieftain tank? or an iraqi pilot flying a phantom, a hawk, an F16 or an F5. the answer to all these is no.

.[/quote]

Holy Ghost

have you ever seen a member of the republican guard carrying an M16, SLR or SA80? or driving an M48, M60 or Chieftain tank? or an iraqi pilot flying a phantom, a hawk, an F16 or an F5. the answer to all these is no.

.[/quote][/QUOTE]

**

... yes iranians, NOT iraqis. sold to them when the shah was still in power, before khomeini's revolution and before the war between khomeini and saddam. again, context. a US puppet the shah may have been - but that explains why. people forget that hindsight is 20/20 and forget that governmental hands are rarely expert in the long term because of what harold macmillan called "events".

Geezer

Absolutely, but I am pointing out that the US is certainly not the good that he makes them out to be. I think it's a given that almost everyone plays underhandedly, it's just the US are so fookin righteous about it all.

Geezer

warrenm2

Ok thats fair enough. Do you want to retract "the fact nearly all the troubles in the world over the last 50 years have been caused by, or made worse by the US" as not true?