How low can you go in a......
21 September 2007, 08:19 PM
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How low can you go in a......
A310?
Well here is the answer, from a couple of angles, LUVLY|
YouTube - Tap Portugal A310 - Portugal AirShow 2007 Evora
YouTube - TAP Airbus A310 Low pass turn Portugal Airshow 2007, Evora
YouTube - Air Show 2007 Evora
YouTube - A310 Portugal Airshow 2007 Evora I
Well here is the answer, from a couple of angles, LUVLY|
YouTube - Tap Portugal A310 - Portugal AirShow 2007 Evora
YouTube - TAP Airbus A310 Low pass turn Portugal Airshow 2007, Evora
YouTube - Air Show 2007 Evora
YouTube - A310 Portugal Airshow 2007 Evora I
21 September 2007, 08:39 PM
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Now you know why TAP stands for Take Another Plane! 
The pilot should be ashamed of himself.
The pilot should be ashamed of himself.
Last edited by FlightMan; 21 September 2007 at 08:41 PM.
21 September 2007, 08:49 PM
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There's nothing clever about endangering your aircraft. He went beyond the limits. Way beyond. Some display fliers slowly let more extreme manouvers creep up on them, until they run out of talent.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
21 September 2007, 08:50 PM
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There's nothing clever about endangering your aircraft. He went beyond the limits. Way beyond. Some display fliers slowly let more extreme manouvers creep up on them, until they run out of talent.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
21 September 2007, 09:01 PM
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Trending Topics
21 September 2007, 09:33 PM
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OK, lets agree to disagree, before one of us gets infracted! 
Here's a quote on the video.
As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands"), he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off.
Here's a quote on the video.
As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands"), he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off.
21 September 2007, 09:35 PM
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Bud Holland, wasn't that the pillock in a B-52, known for flying a tiny bit close to the edge and who ended up stacking it big time and killing himself (not a bad thing as it seems he was a dick) but also his crew (poor buggers)
21 September 2007, 09:36 PM
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OK, lets agree to disagree, before one of us gets infracted!
Here's a quote on the video.
As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands"), he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off.
Here's a quote on the video.
As an ex-military pilot with large aircraft display experience, I have to write in to say how strongly I feel about this. So much blood has been spilt over the years because of low level manoevres in both large and small aircraft: crashes as a result of flying that has been unbriefed and unauthorised, or when pilots have deliberately and knowingly broken the rules or display orders, or when pilots have not been competent to fly their machines outside the normal envelope. One of the worst I recall, when I lost a friend, was the Argosy at El Afraq; it was flown straight into a small water tower during an unauthorised beatup with total loss of life, and started to set people thinking about post war "cowboy" mentality that result in normally sane and competent pilots indulging in reckless flying. Then, a few years later, as the support crew to a maritime exercise in NZ, we were in the back of the Nimrod all flying down to Wellington, when, on take off from Whenupai, the pilot, very experienced and senior, without warning or briefing, racked it round in a low level turn over the flight line, a turn that the Navigator Radar calculated by trigonometry left the starboard wingtip about 5 feet off the ground. Near mutiny in the back of the a/c, and all the pilot could say afterwards was that he was "showing the flag", but could not answer how he could possibly judge how close his wing was to the gound in such a low level pulling and rolling turn, and what damage could be done to a large a/c by "rolling G". I've been in a few scrapes in my 42 years of flying, but I have rarely been so angry at the thought of being put at so much risk by a stupid stunt such as this. Low level manoevring is one of the many weapons in the military pilots' arsenal, but, as a manager, I was continually worried about what the junior pilots were up to when away from base, dedicated and very competent young people, whom in wartime we expect to roar around with "their hair on fire", but in peacetime, though training for war, are expected to obey all the rules or else!.
Now, I say all this has a direct relevance to Display Flying. Air Shows used to be primarily military affairs to show off military power, indulge in national pride and entice foreign arms buyers, amongst other things. In later years, more and more civilain a/c joined the show, mainly as a shop window for prospective buyers, but by and large, the slower, the faster, the tighter, the lower, all the better to show off the product and thrill the crowd. But the loss of life in accidents has been unacceptable, and now the rules and regulations governing participating a/c are very, very stringent. We were told at every briefing that the rules are there for the crowd's and our protection, rules that basically lay down the area in which to fly, observance of the "crowd line", and minimum manoevring height, usually 300 ft, sometimes 500 ft.
Generally, yes, display flying, even in a large a/c is very exciting, you're chosen because you can fly well, you're specially trained and thoroughly briefed, and ordered never ever to go outside the profile, or else, again. But there is a small element of risk, because you're flying outside the normal envelope, but the orders and briefings are supposed take care of this. I've mentioned in a previous post the old display adage, "The better it looks to the crowd outside, the worst it probably is inside the cockpit!" I can vouch for this, having been on one display, pushed towards the crowd line by a 25 knot crosswind and tailwind in a low level turn, and my copilot informing me about the angle of bank and low airspeed in no uncertain terms!
Specifically, therefore, having looked at all the video and read the posts, its my opinion that this pilot was totally out of order and wrong to do what he did. He may be the best pilot in the world, (I've flown with a very few who have naturally "good hands"), he may have been briefed and authorised for this show, but not, certainly not, to execute this low level turn clearly well below the display height in a manoevre that broke the law and put the crowd, his crew and himself at risk, just to show off.
As said before, all was briefed accordingly/practiced properly.
21 September 2007, 09:47 PM
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Not according to Air Traffic Control:
Quote:
I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...
The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft, and pilots capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.
21 September 2007, 11:07 PM
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Not according to Air Traffic Control:
Quote:
I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...
The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft, and pilots capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.
Quote:
I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...
The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft, and pilots capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.
Are you ok?
21 September 2007, 11:09 PM
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Not according to Air Traffic Control:
Quote:
I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...
The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft, and pilots capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.
Quote:
I had the opportunity to speak with the pilots, latter that day ...
The one thing they should have planned better was taking in account the terrain and the fact that people were standing on lower ground, making the manouvre a little bit higher wouldn't had make a difference on showing the aircraft, and pilots capability but wouldn't have frighten the public.
This thread had one purpose: entertainment.
Think must ppl will agree with that!
21 September 2007, 11:23 PM
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It may have been briefed and practiced in the sim, but on the day the amount of roll came out a bit more than was wise, and the amount of climb came out a bit less than was wise, and there should have been more climb before there was any roll...
Entertainment is all very well, but a birdstrike would have finished the show, there was no margin. I'm with Flightman on this one.
Entertainment is all very well, but a birdstrike would have finished the show, there was no margin. I'm with Flightman on this one.
21 September 2007, 11:26 PM
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It may have been briefed and practiced in the sim, but on the day the amount of roll came out a bit more than was wise, and the amount of climb came out a bit less than was wise, and there should have been more climb before there was any roll...
Entertainment is all very well, but a birdstrike would have finished the show, there was no margin. I'm with Flightman on this one.
Entertainment is all very well, but a birdstrike would have finished the show, there was no margin. I'm with Flightman on this one.
22 September 2007, 08:43 AM
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22 September 2007, 11:04 AM
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The most dangerous action in an air display was to carry out an unrehearsed manouevre or display sequence.That was one of the biggest killers of the lot and many have been zapped doing that.Many organisers would ask you to do extra on your slot if they had some spare time and the important thing was to do only previously rehearsed manouevres as I mentioned.
As far as low flying is concerned, there is a lower height limit to a flying display which is often stretched a bit but as long as it is done sensibly there is no problem.
We often were at an airfield where we were not allowed to actually land so instead of the roller landing in the sequence we used to do a low approach flying with the wheels not quite touching the runway. We then selected the wheels up maintaining the same height which always looked impressive. The next move was to allow the aircraft to drop gently by a couple of feet or so which used to make the crowd suck its teeth!
There was no risk if there was a single or double engine failure since the aircraft would climb away very well on two engines anyway at display fuel weights.
If you were doing a climbing turn straight off the runway which was another thing we used to do into a wingover, the important thing was to make sure it was a climbimg roll so that the aircraft effectively pivoted on the inner wing tip since the wing span was over 100 feet and ensured that the wing remained clear of the ground as you rolled.
Les
As far as low flying is concerned, there is a lower height limit to a flying display which is often stretched a bit but as long as it is done sensibly there is no problem.
We often were at an airfield where we were not allowed to actually land so instead of the roller landing in the sequence we used to do a low approach flying with the wheels not quite touching the runway. We then selected the wheels up maintaining the same height which always looked impressive. The next move was to allow the aircraft to drop gently by a couple of feet or so which used to make the crowd suck its teeth!
There was no risk if there was a single or double engine failure since the aircraft would climb away very well on two engines anyway at display fuel weights.
If you were doing a climbing turn straight off the runway which was another thing we used to do into a wingover, the important thing was to make sure it was a climbimg roll so that the aircraft effectively pivoted on the inner wing tip since the wing span was over 100 feet and ensured that the wing remained clear of the ground as you rolled.
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 22 September 2007 at 11:08 AM.
22 September 2007, 11:33 AM
#23
I have kind of given up going to airshows, I am not bothered but I dont really want to put my kids at risk, I know the regs are pretty stringent but that Hurricane crashed last week and if you see footage of that one in the Ukraine in full it kind of puts you off, there was those two Migs that crashed over here, the three that clipped a couple of months back.
22 September 2007, 12:17 PM
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I'm with Flightman on this one , that turn coming off the runway looked very reckless.
Too big a percentage of luck their . How easliy can the pilot see the wing tips from his seat ? If that was a display in Britain ,Would the Pilot be disciplined for that manouvre? and i wonder how a British airline would feel about footage like that being released to the fare paying public?
Although have to admit it was pretty wicked to watch ,although i'm glad i wasn't on that aircraft.
Too big a percentage of luck their . How easliy can the pilot see the wing tips from his seat ? If that was a display in Britain ,Would the Pilot be disciplined for that manouvre? and i wonder how a British airline would feel about footage like that being released to the fare paying public?Although have to admit it was pretty wicked to watch
,although i'm glad i wasn't on that aircraft.
22 September 2007, 12:24 PM
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22 September 2007, 01:21 PM
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There's nothing clever about endangering your aircraft. He went beyond the limits. Way beyond. Some display fliers slowly let more extreme manouvers creep up on them, until they run out of talent.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
If his port engine lets go, he's toast. If he gets caught in a downdraft, toast again.
Google Bud Holland. A infamous case of pushing the display envelope.
BTW, Leslie's your man for this.
YouTube - Mishap of B-52 at Fairchild Air Force Base Washington
need to watch it to the end . after 9 mins is the crash
