Brendan Hughes

I'm hoping for some serious answers amongst the inevitable replies.

The idea of doing one crosses my mind every now and then, either when I feel inferior to colleagues who have one, or when I take the mountain-climbers' attitude - "because it's there, why not".

On the down side, I think it would take a hell of a personal commitment from me, I'd have to merge it with a job (of course the subject would be linked to my job) and a young family, and I don't see any tangible rewards at the end - I'm in the public sector with a fairly predictable pay scale and promotion prospects, I wouldn't exactly leap three grades by achieving it.

Have you done one / are you doing one? How did you find it?

Tidgy

while i havn't done one myself, my sister did pick her certificate up this summer. so i shall pose the question to her if youlike.

however saying that i can tell you that it took her alot of time and effort to do it. a few weeks doing field research (cos of the geological nature of her studies, in Turkey) then two years look down a microscope and writing reports as well as continual pressure to produce intermediate reports to continu her funding.

hat area are you thinking of going into?

OllyK

I've pondered on the idea, but without an obvious return on the investment I've never bothered. Going back to university to get a degree in Computer Science did make sense and has paid off, not sure a PhD would.

Tidgy

also on a side note, although she attained her doctorate (its not your traditional studies, no tests etc) she isn't using it for her job, its just a box to tick onher CV as it were

NACRO

I did mine to avoid the real world and carried on more or less straight after my masters. Funding was a lot easier to come by in those days and I wouldn't have considered paying for it myself.
I don't think I'd go back to do one unless it opened up new opportunities for me.

Nick_Cat

iTrader: (5)

It does take quite some time to get a PhD if you're studying part time. I think on average it is 7 years, if not more. I have several PhD students (archaeology) and one is p/t: began in 2005 expecting to submit 2011.
You're right it does involve a substantial committment. Think about it: your studying would be done in the evenings and w/ends for the next few years. This will impinge on family and other relationships (including your car!). You will also have to pay fees and if you drop out for what ever reasons you won't get a refund.

However, because of all these things it is an achievement: standards have dropped and getting an undergrad and even masters degree is easier than it used to be but the PhD remains a serious academic qualification.

I did mine full-time with funding and submitted a 100k word thesis in 3.5 years. I had to get a doctorate because I wanted an academic career.

Dr Nick

XRS

A lot depends on how relevant it is to your work. You will become, for a short time, the world expert on a very small portion of the world's knowledge on the subject. Keeping it that way would take a huge effort that may not be worth it. Unless you want to follow an academic career there seems little point in it.
Many employers see PhDs as being too specialised, whereas a good degree can demonstrate that you have the ability to learn a subject thoroughly adn should be able to use your skills to their advantage.

andys

Guess the subject makes a bit of difference. I did mine in a lab and spent the best part of 6 days a week for 12 hours a day in there. It still took me almost 4 years to complete. I now work in IT and make no use of it what so ever.

Brendan Hughes

Seven years part-time I don't think I have the patience, or the wife, for that. I've done an OU Cert for a year while living alone, even that took a notable chunk of my time and I was frankly glad when it finished.

Subject would be international criminal law or something very similar. It's extremely tied up with my work, so I'd hope not to be doing one thing daytime and a totally different thing in the evenings.

Heart says maybe but head says no way.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Brendan,

Got mine back in 2003.

Only reason for doing a PhD is beacuse you're interested in the subject matter you're researching and genuinely want to move knowledge forward. Do it for more cynical reasons and, chances are, it'll make your life a misery!

It is a very big undertaking that will test you intellectually, of course, but ask even greater questions about your determination and resolve. Full time, it took me 4 years!

Not uncommon for PT PhDs to take a decade!! Depends on how much time you can really devote to the work. It's not something that you can "kinda" do. You do it properly, or you don't....if you get my meaning

PM your E-mail addy and I'll send you my foreword; kinda sums the process up!

Paul BSc (Hons) PhD PGCert HE......and still on less money than some dustmen!! lol

Brendan Hughes

Thanks - don't worry, I have a fair number of PhDs here I can ask about the process - they already put me off!

That's actually very enlightening, if I think about it that way it isn't so bad

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

LOL. I don't want to put you off per se! Nor do I want to speak ill of the process - I'm immensely proud of having done it and wouldn't change a thing! I went into it with my eyes open, genuinely interested in my research and knowing that it wouldn't bring me fame or fortune!

All I would say - and you're probably finding this out from speaking to PhDs- is that even those who have good experiences at PhD level will attest to just how difficult it is. Accordingly, it needs great dedication on the part of the student and this is something that, somtimes even very gifted people intellectually, aren't prepared for and can't deal with. It's VERY different to studying for a degree or an MSc, or even a taught doctorate.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.

Ns04

scoob_babe

My mum deferred her PhD until we were about 9 yrs old and did it part time. Very expensive and took a lot out of her for 5 years or so. Fortunately she wasn't trying to hold down a job at the same time, just two kids! It was hard on us as my dad had to do the cooking - I swear that's when my brother took an interest in cooking otherwise we'd have starved
My brother did his straight after his first degree. Both of them did science subjects and you can't get far in research these days without a PhD and this is what they both did.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yep, if you want to be an academic and certainly if you want to teach, you will need one, but if you are considering it for the money, don't even go there!

When I was fininishing mine, I saw an advert for a job at a University for a new lecturer. The candidate would need to hold a Degree, PhD (these days a PGcert in addition is an advantage). The salary??
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19K

I s*it you not!!!

For the amount of training required for the jobs, there is NO money in academia!

Ns04

Nick_Cat

iTrader: (5)

I agree, considering the level of qualification and the responsibility the money is pitiful. 19k is very poor and is bottom of the junior lecturer rung which IIRC goes to 24k.
As a senior lecturer I was on 32k; money was one of the reasons why I quit (I have retained my post grad students though).

There is money (relatively speaking) in academia if you're lucky enough to have a research post at one of the traditional Uni's and can spend your time knocking out books or doing research for industry etc.

They never got me to do the PGCert - I had enough experience before I got my first permanent post, thank goodness! TBH some of the new lecturers that I mentored who'd got the qualification didn't seem to have benefitted from it.

Cheers
Nick

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Between you and me (and the rest of SN ). People resent having to do em, and often only undertake it as it's a staff training requirement imposed by the university. Pretty much everyone I know did the bare minimum and just scraped through. However, I figured if a job is worth doing it's worth doing right, so I got a distinction Personally, I found it quite useful in places. Like most things: you get out what you put in!

Where did you end up going upon leaving academia....if you don't mind me asking?

Ns04

Nick_Cat

iTrader: (5)

I am now a freelance archaeologist who provides specialist services within my particular field for English Heritage, and various archaeological units and county councils. I did this part-time when I was a lecturer and gradually built up the contacts and reputation then realised that I could make a go of it on my own.
I wasn't that happy at the University (of Winchester) so it was relatively easy to leave (usual gripes).

Which Uni are you at?

Nick

coolcookie

Hi

I did mine part time. Took me 10 years, self funded. Aged 48 when I finished. Hasn't earned me an extra penny. the only benefit is I insist on use of the title Dr. Had a checkout girl ask me if I was a gynaecologist once - said I'd examine her after work if she wanted!

I think the PhD is the most demanding thing there is. It stretched me well beyond the elastic limit. My subject was Mechanical Engineering.

It's got to be a subject you are very interested in. The satisfaction in producing results which have not been seen before is great.

The commitment is going to be at least 100% especially when writing up. No time for enjoying yourself! You'll need good friends at your university to pull you through, and for you to help along as well.

What's your field of interest?

All the best if you decide to do it. I'm sure anyone here would offer help as their expertise dictates. Cheers Allan

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

I think doing a PhD is fine if you can carry on from your degree and just remain a student ( particularly for those lucky enough to have their parents funding it ) but would be a major headache later in life.

Also, it isnt a particularly useful qualification in most areas - you dont need one to teach, most of my lecturers in Uni didnt have them, but as it was an Engineering degree then their years of experience in industry tended to be more important, and you also dont see many jobs advertised that need them.

I would say a good degree plus experience is more useful than a PhD and no experience.

billythekid

Don’t take this the wrong way.

I have worked with a lot of people with engineering PhDs.

IMHO most (but not all) of them are not as useful in the real world. At the time I took most of them myself during a big recruitment drive - they interviewed very well and technically were upto a good level. At the time the company wanted us to take on new staff with the best qualifications we could find so min of a masters really.

However we did a lot of real world engineering work and I found a lot of them could not cope with managing their staff and setting them work to do etc. Also if something a bit different came up instead of just doing what I told them they would go off and spend half a day reading up on the subject before even starting work. Also, they would spend hours trying to fix a problem by going over technical documentation and looking very deep into the problem, when the actual problem turned out to be something very simple such as a physical fault rather than a design problem which they overlooked from the very outset.

After talking to a few people about the problem it seems to be a common issue. I personally would be reluctant to take on PhDs now if I still worked in that line. I think in a design role they can be very effective, certainly in my old industry, but as we were doing a lot more hands on stuff it just did not work well IMHO.

My advice is to make sure that there is a use for people with such qualifications in your desired industry, and what gain they get from going through the pain!!

scoob_babe

Billy - totally agree with you. Just because someone has the qualifications, doesn't mean they can manage staff. In my experience, technically excellent people make crap managers as they just don't understand why 'you just don't get it'
My brother is very good in what he does in his R&D position at a pharma co but my parents and I really wonder how he copes in the real world at times.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Mike,

I'm not sure what field you're in mate, but you do need one to become a lecturer in Psychology these days. In fact, as I indicated earlier, increasing, universities are also asking for a PGcert too.

I'm sure it does vary from subject though.

TBH if you want to get anywhere in Psychology, you're looking at doctorate these days, either professional or PhD.

I'm not sure the dichotomy between experience and qualifications is helpful, or accurate. Sure, there are examples of some people who, whilst being very capable academically, seem to be about as much use in the real world as a chocolate fireguard, but many PhDs I know were far from locked away in an "ivory tower" and have higher level experience than an undergrad that has spent a similar amount of time in the workplace would have gained. A good proprotion of PhDs are also partly sponsored by industry these days e.g. CASE studentships. In these instances, research atually directly helps the company in some way and the student will often spend significant time with the kind of people they'd be approaching for employment at the end of their studies.

As with any qualification: you have to ask- what am I getting from this?

There is a lot to be gained from a PhD academically and personally, but not necessarily vocationally. If that's ok with you, then go for it.

If not, think again. Keep gaining relevant experience in your field and work your way up that way. PhDs expose any weaknesses in your motivational armour VERY extensively.

Ns04

PS lol at the checkout remark: the best I get is people asking me if I can have a look at their dodgy knee, then, when I explain that I'm a Psychologist, why their nan keeps loosing her temper! LOL

Dan W

Im just completing my third year of a PhD.

I have to agree with those who say it a massive undertaking.

For me my first year was taken up writing research proposals then defending them at ethics committees (I research patients but wont bore you with details)

My second year has been taken up devising more follow up research and collecting data (although I have been collecting data throughout)

My third year has been mainly writing and publishing work.

My fourth year will be much of the same. Although i aim to complete by June.

In order to do that my life will consist of eating sleeping ****-ting and fuc -ing my PhD. Cos there won't be much more in life until its done.

But as mad as i am i love it.

gam1415

I got my PhD 'part time' while working full time. Down side was that I had to continue working an extra 5 hours or so in the evenings and at weekends, and had little leisure time for several years while starting married life and a family. Plus side was that it was funded by my company. I got a really great feeling of achievement and self-satisfaction when I finished writing up and had my viva at Porton Down.

I can honestly say that it was a definite advantage, if not a necessity, for career progression in the pharmaceutical industry, and that it greatly enhanced my earning potential. Reading the preceding posts, it is clear that the possible advantages of having a PhD are highly dependent on your chosen career path, but you will need a very tolerant and supportive family.

Dan W

And a very considerable amount of will.

King Eric

My mate has an engineering PHD. He was offered a well paid job with the US Navy helping develop stealth materials on ships/planes and turned it down. (bread and board for two years, great benefits, company car) The lunatic!

He has some serious student debt as well (and no house) but he literally did'nt work from 19-27. He's 28 now and in his first real job, he is still moaning about the getting up every morning and the poor salary he is on. But he has been so fussy about the roles he has been offered.

He likes being called Dr on his post though, and by the bloke in Blockbusters when his DVD's are overdue

greyarea

I did my (engineering) PhD full time. I was and still am interested in the subject and it opened up an academic career for me.

I have great respect for those who do a part-time research degree. I do not think that I would have been able to successfully complete one. The level of commitment is huge. Where I work the registration period is six years part-time, three years full time. So think about it, for the part-time study you potentially need to find an average of over 15 hours per week for the research on top of any other commitments. If your employer will not support you by at least allowing you to spend time on work relevant for your project you will have very little time left over for anything other than work, study and sleep.

Look carefully at your motivation and what benefit you would get from it. If you are interested in the topic and want to study further, but not for 6+years, you could look at a shorter research degree such as a masters which would last a couple of years.

Don't feel inferior to people with a PhD, there is nothing like doing one to realise that PhD's are human, with all that goes with it. When I consider some of the other people I studied with …

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

NS_04 - I own my own design business, I did an HND in electronic engineering, then a degree in electronic product engineering ( neither of which were wholly relevant to the work I now do really ! ).

I think most of my lecturers had an industry background ( in fact some did lecturing part time and worked in industry the rest of the time, and some seemed to bo back and forth between the two working full time ) rather than a purely academic one, which is probably a lot more useful for teaching.

I agree that in certain fields a PhD probably is desirable for becoming a lecturer, but mainly in more academic fields where there isnt a great deal of change or progress in the field - like if you had a PhD in Maths - the Greeks sorted it all out years ago, so you basically reteach what you learned when you were studying unless you go off into some weird area.

I have occasionally considered carrying on my studies as I enjoyed being a student and the learning part ( I only work part time, so could spare the hours to do it ) and may still for my own enjoyment one day, but it isnt going to make me better at what I do, or earn more money, and I dont think teaching would really interest me that much, so at the moment it can stay on the back burner.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

PHD I think you end up over qualified for anything but Academia, anyway, Scoob plus PHD does not work for me, in fact any qualifications plus a Scoob !

dnc

Got mine back in '92. Did it out of academic interest rather than specifically as a career move. I am still involved in said industry but in operations rather than research, which I much prefer. I quickly found that nothings kills the love of a good subject better than working in that field day-in, day-out. Job I now do does not require a PhD, but it does help.

As most say it does take a lot of hard work, 3 yrs full time for me, but definitely worthwhile, a real sense of achievement. Plus we had an amazing social life and I was loaded with a CASE award, so 5K tax-free at the time (!).

If I had my time again and I were going for a career move I would probably do a different degree - economics/business studies or accountancy.

I would never try to argue against anyone doing a PhD, as the day you are reborn as a 'Dr' is pretty cool...................go for it!!
HTH
'D'NC