pslewis

Should the Japanese be allowed their 'Scientific' Whaling??

The world knows that it is not for research, simply exploitation ....... STOP!

Snazy

Bored today Pete?

But some good topics I will give you that

I think they should stop

pslewis

Just trying to liven the place up ........... it's quiet

L3OUDGIRL

never quiet when i am around lmao

Ootheca

Tricky one this. It's always hard to apply one's own values on another culture and obviously everyone has differing views but my own personal take is that they should be allowed to hunt wales ONLY if the following are true:

1) The animal is dispatched in a humane manner
2) The hunting is sustainable - i.e. quota'ed in such a way as to make sure the population is not endangered or adversely affected, no calfing animals etc.
3) The hunting is to supply a genuine demand that actually exists and that the carcass will be properly utilised. i.e. the meat will be eaten and the blubber utilised (unlike lopping the ***** off a tiger or a fin off a shark and disposing of the rest of the carcass)

I think if the above holds true then it is difficult to build a moral argument based upon our own western perception of what constitutes a viable 'prey species'.

It's also worth noting that we in the West are guilty of abusing a few of the above rules too... particularly no. 2. Is killing a few hundred intelligent and very large mammals worse than wiping out half the atlantic cod population in their millions, moralistically?....

pslewis

Yes ....

Ootheca

But why do you think that?

Is it because you are humanising one species due to your own cultural upbringing? In terms of pure biomass our own 'crimes' against the cod far outweigh that of the japanese against the whale. Is it because it is easier to apply human values on an animal that has social awareness like our own?

It's fine to say that you don't like the idea of whales being killed for meat, nor do I! But I can't see how you can go the extra step and say it is wrong over any other sort of meat. The japanese probably think we are just as 'wrong' for fishing our own seas to the brink of extinction with no concern for future stocks.

The tenets that comprise 'wrong' for me are:

1) People - that's murder!
2) Waste - if it's not sustainable or you are only doing it for frivolous reasons (I count religion in that, but again, only my personal take)
3) Cruelty - there is no excuse for being cruel

Outside of that define what makes a species 'wrong' to hunt for food?

David Lock

Of course they shouldn't be allowed to kill these beautiful creatures.

Well done Greenpeace.

dl

pslewis

The Japanese place mystical powers on parts of animals which beggars belief in this day and age.

I have not, yet, gone into the Chippie and been told that the Cod ***** will enliven my sexual prowess or grow me another *****

Nah, in our developed world we should NOT be hunting wild animals ....... farmed animals are alive for the purpose of being food, it's different.

Ootheca

And you are entitled to your opinion too, but please qualify it!

I have given my opinion (probably an unpopular one for western culture) and taken the time to qualify it. Please have the courage of your convictions to spell out why you think it is wrong, the thread will be all the richer for debate.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

I understand Ootheca's point even though I don't like the idea of hunting whales.

Why is it okay to kill a pig but not a whale?

With that in mind I have to agree that as long as its sustainable, there is a genuine market for the entire animal, and its done in a humane way - I find it hard to rationally object to them being hunted.

I've got a pet Cardisoma Armatum (Rainbow Crab) and have owned a number of species over several years, and I find invertebrates, principally Crabs, Crayfish and Lobsters utterly fascinating and truly amazing creatures (It's my geek thing ). While I'm happy to shoot and prepare all sorts of game, I really don't like seeing Crabs on fishmongers stalls! but I know thats me simply being totally hypocritical and I can accept that.

I don't see Greenpeace jumping up and down demanding "Rights for Crabs!"; principally because the public obviously doesn't find them cute, cuddly and hence, emotive.

Pete, your chip shop cod is a wild creature - it comes from the same environment as the beloved whale; neither are farmed, but both are "fished". I struggle to see a rational, unemotional reason why a haddock is different from a whale.

The bottom line is that as long as a species isn't endangered, it is simply a potential food source to humans. If you don't like that, I suggest you become a vegan, otherwise your just a hypocrite.

Ootheca

I'm with you on that one. The chinese think that tiger ***** makes them more virile. Do they NEED to be more virile?? They are churning out more babies than the rest of the world put together, consuming vast amounts of natural resources and yet tigers must still be killed for their penii? This is what my culture tells me... BUT, I must be mindful that they are only doing what we have already done... raping everything that we can get our hands on in order to further our own end.

You have to be mindful of this when venturing an opinion because hypocrisy is but round the corner!

Well this is kind of a qualification, but it opens up a whole other moral argument. Would a farmed whale have any happier existence than a wild one?

Does a battery chicken enjoy it's lot more than a free range one? A free range chicken more than a wild pheasant?

pslewis

I'll help you out then ....

there are

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Haddock, and

1,000 Hump Back Whales ... or thereabouts.

Ootheca

Thanks for for taking the trouble to qualify your stance, I was beginning to think I'd be the only one who would take the trouble to do so!

I too keep some unusual species and I'm an avid conservationist and yet I still hunt and fish. People say I'm a hypocrite because of this... 'you can't rescue/keep species and then go out and shoot/fish other species'... Well I can as long as I have a biological need to eat and the ability to choose my quarry such that it doesn't endanger it as a species or cause it to suffer needlessly.

Of course these people haven't ever seen the internal organs of a deer ravaged by TB due to mismanagement and overpopulation... you don't tend to get that with prepackaged, nitrogen injected meat in Tescos! They haven't ever seen their prepackaged battery chicken stunned by electricity having it's throat cut either, but why let ignorance get in the way of a good castigation!

Despite all this I am attached to the animals I look after and I'd hate to see anything happen to any of them. It's what makes us human. A gift and a cross to bear all at once.

Brit_in_Japan

There are some cultural issues surrounding the Japanese and whaling which need to be understood.

1. The Japanese don't regard the whales as animals in the way they would for dogs, cats, cows etc. So despite the fact that whales are mammals, the Japanese essentially think of all creatures from the sea as fish. In the same way as we don't form emotional attachments with cod or sardines, they also can't see whales and dolphins as anything other than big fish. They feel nothing towards them.

2. The Japanese character is essentially one of fitting in, knowing one's place, respecting elders and not questioning authority. Therefore there is a huge problem if you ask Japanese people to critically question the scientific basis for their catches of whale. To stop hunting whale for "scientific" purposes would be to admit that Japanese scientists were wrong. That is a difficult pill for them to swallow.

3. It is very important to the Japanese to protect their culture and some see whaling as part of the culture they want to protect.

I've heard (from someone far more educated than me in such matters) that a lot of whale meat has been in storage in freezers because the government couldn't get rid of it. Legally they are not allowed to make a profit from selling whale meat because catching it is for "scientific purposes" so they were trying to give meat to Japanese schools, many of whom weren't interested.

Some has undoubtedly found it's way into restaurants up and down Japan though and I'm not sure how this can happen without Japanese government support. I've eaten whale meat in Tokyo. I expected it to be white and fatty, maybe something like squid, but the meat was actually dark, very similar to beef and it tasted great.

Ootheca

Pete, I have a small issue with your figures (can't be bothered to count the zeroes) in so far as if they are accurate and a particular species of whale was being hunted to the point of endangerment then it is covered by my clause 2)

So is your only argument against whale hunting based on sustainability?

Ootheca

This is a great insight, thanks for posting!

Out of all of it it is really the implication that there isn't actually a demand for the meat that worries me and is the reason I mentioned the necessity of a genuine market for the meat as a condition for hunting rather than it simply being a tradition that they are trying to keep alive for tradition's sake.

The first point, about the Japanese's attitude towards marine mammals is probably the one we struggle with most. We have all seen the dolphin culls etc... and it is an emotive issue that people have a right to object to of course... but I just wish they'd stand up and explain why they think that instead of just posting 'it's wrong - end of'.

pslewis

If Hump Back Whales were in abundance, and I mean in great huge numbers then taking a few for food would be ok ..... but, they are not, and are not likely to be either. How long does it take to produce one adult Hump Back Whale?

Ootheca

It's true that one whale represents a much higher percentage of the overall population and of course it should therefore be monitored very closely, as it already is... but, assuming the whales that they take ARE sustainable then would you still say it is wrong?

The humpback you have mentioned are endangered more than most, but it isn't the only species of whale that is hunted. Minke are much more prevalent for example...

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Your figures aside..

Almost every fish you buy is wild caught - those that arn't, i.e. farmed salmon, are almost universally criticised by the same environmental pressure groups that so avidly oppose whale hunting. Obviously I don't think any of us wish to see threatened species hunted into extinction, but while no-one thinks twice of tucking into a bit of cod, a fish whose sustainability in our waters remains in question; I don't think 'westerners' would accept any hunting of whales, regardless of numbers, because we think they're too cute and fluffy (not literally obviously ).

hrness

just announced japanese to abandon whaling plans

myblackwrx

iTrader: (1)

Is spearing a whale then watching it thrash around humane?

What 'scientific' research are they doing on whales? (serious question as i don't know)

Not that it's much better but cows,sheep and pigs are normally killed virtually instantaneously.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

"normally" is the word there, I don't know if you've ever been on a factory killing line, but its pretty "normal" to see an animal which hasn't been slaughtered properly first time as well.

As for is spearing it and watching it thrash around "humane" - well I consider a humane slaughter to be a slaughter thats done in the quickest, most effective way possible - now, as I'm not much of a fisherman, I'm not sure what the most effective way of killing a whale is, but I'm guessing your a bit short of options.

Geezer

Is letting all those fish suffocate humane? Killing is not a humane thing by it's very nature.

I think pigs are beautiful creatures, shouldn't we kill those either?

Indians think cows are sacred, we use them for food and clothing, so your argument is based on what? (Of course, I am assuming you are not a vegetarian, I could be wrong though).

The only argument against whaling is sustainability. If it's sustainable, then why not?

Geezer

David Lock

Well my take is completely unscientific and illogical

I happen to think that there are some wonderful creatures on this planet and we should look after them. Some are more intelligent than others and which creature you like is a personal choice of course. I have a sort of list which I would like to see unharmed - for no other reason than the fact that I think they are superb creatures. These include things like Dolfins, Rhinos, Tigers and Pandas with Whales near the top of the list. You get the idea.

So a cod is nearer the bottom of my list but even so I am angry when I see them caught and slung back dead because they have ended up in the wrong net or exceeded a quota.

As I say it makes no logical sense but that's what I think

Footnote. When I was a kid I went to see Moby Dick and the hero was the chap who harpooned the evil Whale. Nice to think that attitudes are changing.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

At least you admit it

I'm not massively keen on the whole whaling thing - but I find it hard to object to it based on personal preference of animal species. No one here is going to stop eating crab because *I* like them. (Which are WAY cooler and more complex than any stupid whale )

I just think its one of those things where you have to take emotion out of it and look at it objectively.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

The Chinese will soon be our masters, they will pay us back x1000000 for the opium wars