MattW

Low Emission Zone

Not seem much about this on here. New Low Emission Zone came into force today for buses, trucks, vans who must pay £200 per day to enter Greater London if the engines do not meet certain standards. it looks as though vehicles around 2001 may possibly not meet them.

There was an article on the news this morning all about it, at then end it said it would be extended to small vehicles by the end of the year. So does this affect diesel engines only or are most of you lot going to have to pay £200 to travel into Greater London?

PeteBrant

It wont affect cars at all. At some point it will affect large deisel vans (2012). At the moment it only affect coaches/busses/trucks and the like.

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

Vehicles affected | Transport for London

MattW

Ahh missed that. So more BBC mis reporting

The Zohan

effects fire engines and ambulances - lets hope that they are all up to spec, or can afford the fines or the emergency services could be restricted - more TFL/gov't joined up thinking then

PeteBrant

I think it's probably fair to say that emergency services will be exempt

Leslie

Prices in the supermarkets must have to go up in London then!

Les

Odds on

Unlikely, the cost of converting vehicles to comply isn't that much. (Certainly not compared to the daily tax!)

GC8

Youd hope so wouldnt you? Youd be mistaken though, they are not excluded. We shouldnt be surprised though. Fire engines can still look like new when they are ten tears old: Id wager that many of them which operate in the affected area dont have Euro4 engines, let alone Euro5.....

SwissTony

iTrader: (19)

There was a report on this converting last week i think and the cost of upgrading some of the older vehicles was very very high ( we are talking thousands of pounds here) and some of the vehicles featured in the report were as good as being scrapped compared to the cost of the conversion.

What makes me laugh is when the whole congestion charge idea was brought in, it was about reducing the amount of cars which in turn would reduce the pollution. Okay, well in that case call it a pollution charge instead. So they reinforce that idea by giving electric cars/hybrids exempt status. Okay fine, slightly skewed thinking but we shall let that one slide.

So imagine a large long busy road in central london, say Park lane. Now its full nose to bumper with normal cars and polluting lorries etc. Lets say its 10,000 of them.
So you remove all these horrible polluting cars and lorries (who cant afford the crazy charge anyway) and replace them with lovely bendy buses, g-whizz's and toyota prius . Marvellous, no pollution. But there would still be 10,000 of them filling up ParK Lane. So where is the achievement in that.

Oh hang on, the pedestrians walking past all this traffic on their lovely wide wide pavements would have nice clean air and the daffs on the remaining green bits would all be flourishing ....whoopeee bloody do

Shark Man

I suppose they could be modified by using LPG injection and DPFs on the exhaust. Quite simple retrofits that do cut emissions quite a bit.

I'm amazed that no real company has started up doing modern fueling system for old diesel engines: By retrofitted modern pumps, injectors and turbo chargers (with intercooling), an old engine could probably be brought up to EU4 standard.

But the reality is I suppose, most commercial stuff like trucks and buses can just be retrofitted with a new engine. Many of the old double-deckers by me which orginally had Gardener and Perkins engines were re-engined with Volvo engines, which shows, it no big deal just to swap the engine with something newer.

PaulC72

Thats the quote of the day for me Chris

But I see your point.

Clarebabes

Who cares, I'll not drive in "that" London anyway. Steer clear of the place is the best advice.

GC8

What they do paves the way Clare. That London today, that Northampton the day after tomorrow.....

Shark Man

Yes, it opens up the idea for other cities to implement such systems. B'ham do keep threatening to implement a CC zone, they are certainly ploughing money into feasibility studies

The M6 Toll is another pilot scheme that the government wants to succeed. Despite their efforts it's failing; with huge losses, massive debt, and growth is negative (i.e increaseing less vehicles are usnig it). The nail in the coffin is the value of the infracstructure has also devalued!!

It's a important thing, as this proves that pay-as-you-go motoring is unpopular. But the government would want nothing more for the scheme to be proven as a success;

So soldiering on, reports suggest that the government is thinking of setting up tolls on the normal M6 in the most congested parts...giving road users no alternative motorway. IN effect forcing people to pay tolls - despite the proven statistics that show the M6 Toll is a total failure directly due to the public's opposition of it!

pacenote

Midland expressways don't do themselves any favours by putting the charges up - car charges up by 28% this January. The charge is not that much if its just for the odd trip but soon mounts up for regular users ( although tag users do get a small discount )

Where have you heard this ?

Sonic'

So by paying an emissions tax, where is the money going to go, this £200 a day charge

Is it going to go towards subsidising the cost of converting engines ?

Is it going to go to install clean air filter systems throughout the streets of London, nope thought not

It doesnt affect me personally, so dont realy know if it is a good idea or bad idea, like Swiss said though, its not really going to reduce traffic, just the type of traffic

Since the congestion charge was introduced has there actually been a reduction in cars or has the number of cars increased?

The Zohan

I wonder if this will effect foreign registered lorries who already have it all their own way regards fuel cost, vehicle costs and licencing/operating costs.

i very much doubt it...

davyboy

Quite where the "up to 1000 lives a year could be saved" stat comes from is anyones guess.

SwissTony

iTrader: (19)

The money goes into more bendy buses and lining ken's re-election coffers..oh and subsidising idiots that get drafted in at huggggge expense to sort out the failing underground system and then once sacked, still get a golden handshake.

as for figures on whether the congestion charge has reduced the amount of cars..two differing of figures there. TFL will say yes of course, but its not bloody surprising when now the area it encompasses is huge. All they have done is to now divide the amount of cars in central london by the square area of the zone and ..surprise surprise the amount of cars is lower.

I just loved it how in the time it has been running, there has been 3 contradictory changes to the charge. Twice they said they would never increase the cost..mmm it went up from 5, then 6 then £8. and they would never extend it..mmm yup they did, all against the wishes of a vast majority of residents, shop owners, car drivers etc.

I also loved how at the time of its inception, they rolled it out at half term, changed 60% of the traffic light sequences and suspended 40% of roadworks..it worked brilliantly for the first 2 weeks and everyone applauded them...absolute tossers, they must think we are both stupid and gullible

The LEZ is just another way of taxing the capitals drivers whilst at the same time of looking green and improving our quality of air.

The Zohan

spot on swiss, you cannt trust Kenny or tfl or the gov't re their motives, they steamroller through stuff that would otherwise not get passed by claiming it is all about 'the greener london' whilst the reality is it is all about the money.

Sonic'

I didnt realise they have widened the area, its been a couple of years since I last worked in London, but then I always got the train, just under two hours on the train and I can have a nap, or 5 hours plus in the car getting stressed and costing a lot more

Plus the hotel I always stayed in at Euston its car park was in the congestion charge area, but the hotel itself wasn't

Odds on

At the beginning, yes. London was a breeze to drive round.

BUT, take into consideration a couple of well known factors.

* All road works were banned unless absolutely nessecarry for the 1st few months. This caused all the utility companies to increase the amount of disruption in the lead up to get the work done.

* The traffic signals are centrally controlled. It's well known (and even admitted IIRC) that they were altered before hand, then reset to a sensible setting once the scheme started.

Hence the reason it 'worked', but I believe there is no difference now.

The bendy buses that the money has brought don't fit into the bus stops, so the tail end is left blocking the traffic. This causes a lot of the new problems.

Its a tax, which ever way you look at it and I'd be suprised if it ever goes. No matter what any new mayor might promise.

Shark Man

I tried to dig up a link for you. Unfortunately I can't get google to give me a link to the report (m6 and toll is probably not the best choice of keywords ).


But the jist was there plans to build another yet another toll road that ran alongside the M6. When that idea was scuppered, the goverenment have succumed to the realisation that the old M6 HAS to be widened. However, it is still consdiring how it can implement a charging scheme as part of the widening process. Or to forget the widening altogether and just charge to use it full stop.

pacenote

Thanks for looking - I'll have a search around myself as I use the M6 alot

SwissTony

iTrader: (19)

As you can imagine the CC is one of my pet hates
The LEZ is just another way to cripple those who drive into London for work , thinly disguised at reducing pollution and congestion.

A few links for you lot to read...and if you think this kind of scheme is not coming to a city or town near you, then think again.

Congestion Charge Confusion (from News Shopper)

Livingstone’s £8 zone heads west, but traffic jams are as bad as ever - Times Online

Note: see how our wonderful Ken has blamed the utility companies for the congestion by digging up the roads Paragraph 9
Also note the slight difference in that article about the proposed LEZ charge, from £25 to £200 !! and months earlier . Paragraph 4

National Alliance Against Tolls - London Congestion Charge - Impact Report Jan 2005

Clarebabes

I wouldn't care, I do my main clothes shopping in Milton Keynes or pop round the corner to the shops in Wellingborough where I work. Town centres will become ghost towns with only people who travel on the bus being able to get to them.

The Zohan

we do a lot of our shopping in MK, choose not to shop in northampton town centre as not any free parking avaliable and more traffic wardens than you can shake a stick at - travelling in pairs. Shame you do not see as many Police in town, might make a big difference.

Refuse to use the busses with two kids and shopping that would be a right barrel of laughs.

Clarebabes

I wouldn't mind using the bus more if it actually cost any less than driving in, paying for parking and then driving home.

Also in Northampton, most of the car parks are pay and display, so if you're late back to your car, you get a ticket - see Paul's point on traffic wardens! They must make a fortune...

BOB.T

On the Olympics I should think!