The Zohan

Comments from Gary Newlove's widow in Parliment today and also a top cop's comments.

Both well worth a read and how many home truths!
BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | No 'quick fix' to end 'yob rule'

BBC NEWS | England | Newlove widow's 'get tough' call

ritchie21

I both prosecute and defend many youngsters and there is no quick fix! There are so many different reasons why people offend and in today's age, everybody always seem very quick to blame it on something ie ADHD etc.

I read the thread on here about illegal drugs with interest as in my experience, as well as alcohol, drugs are one of the major contributing factors in youth offending today. I'm not doubting what many said on that thread about being able to do drugs without suffering addiction, anti-social behaviour etc but the fact is that probably 95% of the people I deal with in court (whether defending them or prosecuting them) drugs and/or alcohol are involved.

The fact is that anybody buying drugs off of dealers, whether addicted or not, allows them to stay in business and for every one person they sell to who doesn't have a habit/serious problem there are umpteen others who buy who offend as a result of and/or to support their habit.

We as parents also need to start interacting with our kids more and stop viewing alcohol as harmless - the sooner we realise that it's not suitable for kids the better! The amount of kids that I deal with whose parents can't be bothered to spend time with them or let them have their friends around and find it easier to buy them drink and dump them in a park/on a street corner/in a field etc is astonishing.

Maybe we need to reeducate ourselves and change our attitudes before we see any response with our kids??

The Zohan

Interesting - good to see a pov from someone within the system.

Bonehead

Agree with all the above - from somone else who works in the system.
See all to often. Potentially decent kids who need some direction in life left to run around and turn into scumbags.

Leslie

Interesting post from Ritchie. I support what Mrs Newlove said also.

I think that these young thugs know perfectly well that they are doing wrong. There is no excuse for what they get up to. It is a vicious attack on authority and on society, it is not just the alcohol and the drugs which cause such behaviour, they are just a corollary to it all. The old excuse of " nothing to do" just does not wash!

The question is-why do they do it in the first place? I believe it is more due to their upbringing than anything else. If a child is allowed to grow up "wild" with no direction from his parents from a young age, then he is more likely to take the wrong direction in life. The results of that become worse when he joins with others in the same mould (or lack of it). This attitude is then made even worse with the binge drinking and use of drugs and they become incorrigible with no sense of responsibility or self control.

This sort of thing often seems to stem from parents who also give in to their children and give them everything they ask for in the belief that will make the children love their parents. This is really a formula for gross disrespect and the child becomes in the old fashioned but so accurate term "spoiled".

The other type of parent will just allow the child to do what he wants, never understand the meaning of discipline, and to be allowed to run around the streets until all hours with no form of control, with the rest of the "gang".

Not that many years ago all parents used to take a pride in how their child was brought up, and were prepared to discipline them when they did wrong. This is course no longer allowed! Discipline often needs a sharp lesson and that often means corporal punishment. Teachers can no longer exercise any kind of effective discipline and the children just laugh in their faces now.

Unless children are brought up to respect discipline and respect for others they will not take a responsible place in society which also cannot exist without rules, laws and significant punishment for those who ignore them.

Les

PeteBrant

I've managed to bring up two well adjusted kids without resorting to criminal assault, I don't see why anyone else can't.

r32

Its amazing that thugs get off with just a warning or the Bill dont turn up at all, yet a young family man who has his bin lid open four inches is seen as such a threat to civilisation that he incurs a huge fine and ends up with a criminal record.

The Zohan

Just for once stop the devils advocate. incidentally the rise in problems has com about since the abolishment of corp[oral punishment in schools but that is another fight for another day maybe.

There are two extremes here - too much slapping the kids about and parents who do not give a sh*t - both have dire consequences.

Peter, you seem pretty well adjusted (for a leftie) and smart individual and pretty able to out think most kids - well IMHO!

I like to think that i am as well. My kids know that if hey keep being bad and by that with sufficient warnings or non physical punishments such as restricted access to friends /tv/dvd, etc then there is a slap waiting - across the leg or hand. I do ot believe that that makes me a criminal or a child abuser, nor should it anyone else.

The point is that you are able to reason and you persist, keep at them put the argument forward as t why they should behave and see what the consequences are. At least i believe you try and try hard.

However, there are just as many parents who just do not bother and cannot be ar$ed and the kids and their behaviour can reflect this.

Along with some poor role models, glamourising of drink/drugs - and their ease of availability and the plethora of rubbish TV such as Big Brother which show that to get on does not require anything more than a Big Mouth!

There is a growing problem in this country and getting bigger by the day as it is left or plastered over.

Drink and Drugs amplify this and the situation but are not the root cause - kids do it because they get respec' from others. The do it as they have not had boundaries set or had their behaviour challenged or even if they have had it challenged then have not been punished or admonished.

Their behaviour is not challenged
They know how to play the law, courts, judges, etc.
They have support service falling over themselves to help them and get them off
They know their rights and do not care about responsibilities.
That is the crux of 'why' - imho

PeteBrant

Just to clarity, I beleive there is a difference between "Corporal punishment" as Les mentioned, and a slap across the legs as you mentioned.

Personally I wouldn't use either, but I don't think if a parent decides to slap thier child that makes them an abuser.

However, using a cane or such like does to my mind.

I don't administer physical punishment to my kids, and never have done. I don't see why anyone else should have the right to abuse the decisions I have made in how to bring up my kids.

The Zohan

Therefore as a responsible parent the chances of your kids requiring corporal punishment at school is pretty slim at best.
back when i was a lad (yes, i hear you all sighing!) i only remember 4-5 kids getting the cane in all the time i was a secondary school. It was the threat and the stigma that went along with it that worked - well with most anyhow. The school playground grapevine was pretty good and you always got to know who, when where and why. likely around 600 kids at school.

What about the kids who do not have their behaviour challenged at home, who have no boundaries and do not receive punishment or admonishment in any way.

Should they then be treated specially and be sen to be rewarded or get away with their bad behaviour, thus setting a poor example to others who might be easily led into trouble.


should they be able to tell teacher so get lost and do as they like when they like or have teachers or in fact members of th public in fear of being bullied or injured.


The Likes of Gary Newlove or the chap killed recently in the underpass could have been anyone of us or our loved ones. The chap killed in the underpass was ex-army and picked at random, imagine if it had been a pregnant mum to be.

Some kids just know they are on top and believe their own hype and people are getting hurt or in some cases killed.

It has to stop - these kids need dealing with and from an early age. The parents are the ones needing a good slap IMHO!

It may not be a brilliant solution but otherwise what can be done.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Nail, head, hit!

Unfortunately, IMHO we're seenig the effects of a "disposable generation" i.e. kids were born through greed (benefits) laziness (just wanting to avoid work) or through ignorance/carelessness (not using reliable contraception). There is a world of difference between attitudes towards parenthood of kids that were born under those circumstance and those born to coupkes who actually wanted kids! In the former case all too often, the parents don't care and the kids follow suit!

It would be naive to say that happy and caring parents always raise well adjusted kids, but it's a damn good start. A good deal of the parents I see out today aren't fit to raise cattle, let alone children!

It's an uncomfortable truth, but there is an increasing rot in UK society, not so much generation x as generation c!

Ns04

PeteBrant

I would say the first place to look when a child goes completely off the rails is the parents. I don;t mean like the odd misdemeanour - We all had a drink in the park when we were 14 or 15. I eamn like proper trouble, that unless nipped in the bud will lead somewhere. In these instances the parents should feel the pressure to take some action.

The Zohan

agreed, but if the parents just do not care, and there seems to be plenty that do not then what next. There has to be boundaries and punishments for further infractions (for want of a better expression)

I live in a nice area, our local co-op now has two bouncers on at night and sometimes i just drive past it and head to the local Esso instead as there are some 30+ kids outside drinking, playing. fighting, shouting, running about.

Eventually it all kicks off, fight, car on fire or doing burn-outs - Police come, kids leave, kids come back.
Where are the parents, watching Big Bro or whatever tucking up indoors

what can the cops do - asbo - great!
Move the problem to another area they are not banned from.

Maybe we need to bring back the Borstal and strict routines, no silly rights or softly softly for the kids that have broken the rules and los them.
Perhaps they should have to earn the rights to get back into decent civilised society.