sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

then this is the place to do it


East Finchley Cemetery
High Road
East Finchley
London
N2 9AG



i have spoken to the guy at the above address as i wanted to do something, maybe a plaque in his name. i am hoping to visit the cemetery tomorrow.

if you leave flowers they will be there for 5 days then removed. the spot is already marked with flowers so its easy to find




i was told that the family of baby P have to be informed or asked about a plaque as they might not want one .......that is just wrong IMHO




if anyone wants to do anything then i am sure that a lot of support from snet will follow


Email:
islingtoncamdencemeteries@islington.gov.uk

bereavement-services.org

SetoN

Can i just ask why you feel the urge? Its sounds like you didn't even know the family. Sad as it maybe, this happens all over the world, put it on your door step and let the media give it a name like 'Baby P' and people feel the urge to start making plaques?

Just curious. Don't take it the wrong way.

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

human nature.


you dont need to know the child or family involved

boxst

I actually agree with this. If you feel the need to do something, give some money to the RSPCC (erm, does that still exist?) or childline.

Steve

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

NSPCC?

yeah, and look what they did for that poor baby


i would rather give my money to have a permanent reminder set up so no one forgets what happens

Mitchy260

Very thoughtful Sara, i agree with your sentiments.

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

thanks,
i am going tomorrow to the graveyard to pay my respects.

i know not everyone feels the same but i wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes

HappyMan

This reminds me of the Princess Diana hysteria that gripped our nation. Yes it was sad but it didn't impact of the majority of people's lives. Personally i think people that have to go to these places to show their condolences are purely attention seekers that can announce to everyone they've been. The fact you've announced it on here says it all.

If you want to go then why tell us?? As for the NSPCC how can they get the blame for some sicko misfit that needs death by firing squad.

Mitchy260

If i lived within 10-20 miles of the area, i too would drop off some flowers.

Tragic case and its touched the majority of the country.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I think putting flowers on the grave is making a bit of a circus of it, it happens every year or two, freaks breed and have a child then manage to kill it by neglect or abuse, then the social services come in for massive stick, they may have buggered this up, I dont know I have not read about it in full but its a hell of a responsibility and you are always treading a line between accusing innocent parents of horrible things (Marrietta Higgs) and trying to keep the nutters under scrutiny, probably with to big an area, too many cases and not enough resources.

Its so annoying that these people can breed with impunity yet there are so many decent couple that cant have kids and adoption is a massive undertaking.

It is always going to happen, people go mental, social workers miss things.

I do wonder that if all the scroungers were contributing, all those claiming and working were contributing, tradesmen paying income tax, the very rich paying their whack rather than taking it offshore etc etc that there would be more cash to deal with issues like this. Like I said, I dont know the full facts and it may be down to complacency or incompetence but it does make me think sometimes that people say how horrific things like this are and bemoan the lack of social care but kind of forget about that when it comes to paying some tax or getting a job rather than relying on handouts, Baby P is what the welfare system was/is for, not somebody who has got too fat to move so has been registered disabled but makes £500 a week doing car boot sales.

Sara, I admire your concern and the sentiment but give the money to a childrens charity rather than a florist.

Tony@Greenlight

This case is absolutely harrowing and to criticise sara for just expressing their personal view on a public forum is wrong.

There is a ton of detail within the press and if you take time out to read it, this will be one of those things that sticks with you for life.

If you read all the coverage about this case you cant help but feel the deepest sorrow. It's totally tragic and if any of us had the slightest chance to save him, every one of us would.

Forgetting this little man is wrong, he was brutally tortured in life and failed by everyone - including his mum. He had a paupers funeral with his ashes simply being scattered by a fountain in the middle of a graveyard - he doesnt even have a memorial/stone.

Nobody cared (or was competent/able) enough to save him when he was here and having a paupers funeral just makes this even more poignant.

Baby P(eter) can act as the catalyst to change the law, to beef up the level of competent staff within councils and their effectiveness by cutting beaurocracy/red tape in handling child protection issues.

Removing management who want "yes men" as social workers and use phrases such as "my way or the highway" has to be a priority.

Doing all we can to stop it happening to the next little guy is what has to come from this. Whether thats simply being vigilant in your own life, donating (time or funds) to worthy causes such as NSPCC, or anything else - surely anything that can be done by us is better than nothing and a step in the right direction.

Primarily I'm here in a professional capacity as a trader, who has been involved within the Subaru community for some 12 years (locally, SIDC, SNET) and ordinarily do not look to deviate from trade related subjects, but on a personal level this one I cant ignore.

Tony

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

I think the money would be better spent on the children that are still suffering today.

Although I understand where you're coming from.

Hanley

Well said Tony

Hanley

As a father of a 3 and a half year old boy and a 2 year old boy I'm struggling to come to terms with this.

It's now come to the point where I try not to read about it any more as it still makes me sick thinking what that poor little boy went through.

I pray and pray that some hard knuckled meathead in prison reads the stories and gives the guy what he deserves, slow and painfully.

Devildog

Agreed, however I also agree that Sara's time, effort and money could be put to much better use to help preventing something like this happening again, rather than what is proposed.

Please don't take that the wrong way - tragic events affect us all differently, but spending money on flowers and a plaque that could otherwise be donated to NSPCC or Childline for example won't help the baby in question, but could go towards helping other children who may find themselves in similar positions.

David Lock

It would have been a nice gesture if that £100k a year woman in charge at Haringey had given a couple of grand - anonymously - to enable P to have had a proper funeral. I bet the thought never crossed her mind. dl

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

I suggested something similar yesterday. Rather than money to help these children (there are a lot of societies out there doing a hard but great job like Barnado's, Children's Society, NSPCC etc) it might be good to form a lobby group to make sure that the stupid amount of 'rights' given to the family which prevented this child being taken into care and the massive amount of proceedures that need to be followed are done away with and commonsense as well as police and care worker recommendations are actually listened to.

5t.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Exactly.

boxst

I'm not criticising Sara, if that is how she feels then it is a way to mark respect.

I'm just saying that personally I would rather give the money to try to prevent cruelty to children that are still here and crying out for help. Childline and the NSPCC are far from perfect (as are most charities as I've worked for a few ... don't get me started) but if they help save someone then it is better than nothing.

Steve

Snazy

I agree its a very touching subject, and everyone is free to do what they feel is right. Laying flowers etc.

I do however agree that if this gesture is made, it should be backed up with a donation of sorts to the NSPCC etc. Its not fair to say "what did they do" if they were never made aware of the child. Which its unlikely they did, as no one else reported the neglect outside the medical and police circles.

My point is however about the permissions required. Baby P's natural father is nothing to do with the neglect (from what I read) and is devastated. Its therefore HIS and his families right to dictate how his child is honoured, and to choose to avoid a media circus, and a "shrine" to his lost loved one.

Tony@Greenlight

This is going to be a case of each to their own and I do take the point that the only financial beneficiary from flowers would be a florist, rather than a kids charity such as barnardos, NSPCC, Gt Ormond St, childrens society.

But with something this emotive, people just want to show they care or would have cared given the opportunity. This little boy has touched our lives and people just want to do something.

Ultimately it's all about opinions, feelings and doing what you feel you should on an individual level.

Tony

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Guys, I'm treading carefully here as I don't like to stiffle debate.

BUT

Can we please exhibit some senstivity towards Sara. We should not be questioning her motives, and personal questions are best kept as exactly that, personal - not broadcast on a forum.

If Sara wishes to elaborate, she will. If not, that is her perogative, but common sense should tell you that she should not have to endure a series of posts presuming to question her motives. They are her own.

Her intention was just to tell people where they may lay flowers if they are so inclined.

DevilDog and GC8, your posts have been amended/deleted accordingly.

Cheers,

Ns04

Matteeboy

We lost a baby at 37.5 weeks last year - a knot in his cord tightened but he was otherwise perfect and healthy.

We would have given ANYTHING to have him back but now have a beautiful 8 week old baby boy.
How anyone can harm a healthy (or unhealthy) and lovely little boy (Baby P looks a bit like our little one) is utterly beyond belief.

Hopefully not many of you have seen a dead son or daughter but it's incredibly sad. We visit his grave pretty much every day.

Tony has a hell of a point - why not give to Children in Need, the NSPCC or similar? That's what I've done, spurred on by this case.

GC8

We arent questioning her motives. We are pointing out that the money would be better spent making a difference to children who are still in jeopardy.

The point remains valid that where people are upset (which is perfectly understandable), they want to give flowers etc to make themselves feel better. Better to do something constructive with the money, in my opinion.

Simon

Devildog

Yes and no mate,

I appreciate this is a sensitive subject, but its also a public board and Sarah has no personal connection to this baby whatsoever. Had she, then I'm sure the response would have been different.

Had Sarah simply posted details then fine, but she didn't. She passed comment on the position of the family and also gave information of what she intended to do. That in itself was always going to create additional comment.

But I have no issue with the removal of my question, even if I disagree with your actions

ps - Ex mod to new mod, you need to edit the quoted comments as well, not just the original posts.

Matteeboy

I have a feeling (I might be very wrong) that Sara might have some personal connection or at the very least related issue that brings the story very close to her? I think what she is doing is admirable.
I'd lay flowers (that I'd pick myself) if I was still in London.

As it was I went for child charity donations instead.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Ta for the pointer and for being understanding!

To clarify. I don't mind people expressing an opinion on the subject generally at all, but questioning, or presuming to know Sara's motives is another matter.

If she wishes to elaborate I'm sure she will, but we shouldn't drag a response out of her with a statement of the kind you made. I dont think for one minute there was any intended harm in your post though

Sometimes I'd argue, you just have to be a bit careful where you tread.

All the best.

ns04

mamoon2

Couldn't agree more with these comments, I have donated to charity after hearing about this case and also have been donating for 6 years by direct debit every month. If people want to do something then this is a good way to support these types of charity. Nobody misses £2 a month but it makes a difference to the charities.

Also think that any type of plaque or memorial should be done with the strict permission of the family.

sarasquares

iTrader: (1)

oh dear

i have come back and read what people think i should spend my time and money on


i made a comment at the beginning of the thread which has been mentioned. i would like to add the reason i said that but i don't want to be ripped apart on here so i wont.