Jamz3k

Sounds bizarre to me that some innocent person could be caught up to the point of being sent to Guantanamo Bay?

Maybe I'm Naive!

BlkKnight

Do innocent people get shot by the police?

GC8

Completely innocent? I doubt it. Guilty of something sufficient to justify that? Quite possibly not.

bugeyeandy

Watch this film The Road to Guantanamo (2006)

I believe innocent people have ended up in Guantanamo Bay.

Jamz3k

Very much depends on the circumstances does it not? Shooting someone can be a split second reaction.

Which is very much different than being sent to Guantanamo Bay

RyanSTI

iTrader: (1)

innocent of what exactly? there picked up in war zones. if they didnt want to be in a war zone they didnt really have to be there did they?

hodgy0_2

yes -- you only here about the ones that maybe innocent i.e. the top 20%

they've released 1000's over the years, some as young as 12 or 13 and I,m sure the vast vast majority are only guilty of "looking shifty"

after all Cat Stevens is on the terror watch list, couple of dodgy albums maybe but not a terrorist

Luan Pra bang

The reason that innocent people got sent there is that the data mining process used to identify possible suspects is outsourced to private companies who are paid based on results. They often use a search data base that looks for linked and similar names so if you have the same name as a terrorist and one other similar factor such as a DOB this can then qualify you as terror suspect.

Another probem was due to cash rewards being offered for handing over Taliban suspects, in a desperately poor tribal areas anyone in the wrong place at the wrong time was sold by rivals or enemies to the USA as a terrorist or taliban fighter. This practice was stopped after it was found to be giving up mostly inocent people.
(DV) Rajiva: The Torture-Go-Round -- The CIA's Illegal Rendition Flights
The above link refers to a well documented case of an innocent german citizen Being kidnapped and tortured. There have been many example of illegal rendition for other suspects but many of the better documented cases, like the CIA employees on trial in Italy , it would appear that the suspects may well have been guilty. Wether this is chance or because no documents get released on the innocent people is anyones guess.
For me the problem is that guilty or not torture and being held and convicted with no fair trial is wrong who ever does it. If people are guilty lets have a proper trial with laywers and judges etc, not military tribunals.

Luan Pra bang

People do actually live in Afganistan and Pakistan you know, you cannot be guilty just for living in your home village. What about the European and canadian citizens tortured then released after 5-8 months ? Do you think European countries should allow the CIA to kidnapp people and ship them to other countries for torture before dumping them in Gitmo bay for indefinate periods.

jasey

They should have been shot dead when they were in the war zone.

Dead Martyrs are much better than living terrorists

Petem95

I can't believe the government have been pushing to get people from there 'home'. Pretty clear what these extremists are upto who get arrested in war zones. He was most likely out there to kill UK/US troops, but this PC-government obviously gives him a 'welcome home' and no doubt he can look forward to a life on benefits, after sueing the UK/US government with legal aid!

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Totally innocent. I often take a stroll through Afghanistan and there are some lovely views from the Pakistani border that just happen to be near a terrorist training camp.

We need to give him a few £££ in compo if you ask me

RyanSTI

iTrader: (1)

lol funny how none of us have ever been arrested and sent to the bay.

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

Maybe they do but TBH I think that you have some serious questions to answer if you are caught in the battle field with the Taliban.
Of course its easy for people to disagree with me from the comfort of there armchairs.
When its happening around you believe, Its hard to understand how they can be 100% innocent.

Dedrater

Why are Luan Pra bang posts unwanted?

jasey

Because enough people have pressed the thumbs down next to his posts.

Give them a thumbs up and (provided enough folk do) the posts will move "up" the rating ladder.

To be honest with you it's almost as annoying as the infraction system - but at least it doesn't stop Luan from posting.

Dedrater

members only thing?

Cant see the point if its only his opinion, if he was calling someone a ******** fair enough.

jasey

Not quite sure about the rules for who gets to vote - members / long standing members etc.

As you say pointless really and potentially dangerous for lively debate.

Mind you - I'm sure it wont stop Luan from speaking his mind

Luan Pra bang

It dies raise the question of why fighting in the Taleban refutes your all your rights under the geneva convention. They are after all fighting a war against an invading force. I do wander what kind of treatment UK troops would get given if caught. I don't think the taleban are to fussed about international laws either.

hodgy0_2

the Russian POW's they captured in the 80's didnt look to pretty after they had finished with them

boxst

You do have to wonder what urges someone to go to a warzone to 'help'. And to help with what? Really being part of the Taliban is the only reason.

Having said that, I don't think that it is justified to just lock someone up for four years without a trial or eveidence being brought.

Steve

Timwinner

iTrader: (3)

Rights..... Some of these people take from us, They use are way of life to carve out a better life for themselves, They then fly half way around the world, Try to KILL UK troops, and in some cases do. They then fly back if undetected and continue life in the UK.

Its not good enough, That is what negates there rights. UK troops are not and have never invaded Bradford, or east london.

Luan I am guessing you have never seen conflict past the pages of the Guardian, I am guessing you are an angry ex student or similar.
I am a very tolerant person by all accounts but when someone is pointing a gun in your face because you are trying to free a country from an unwanted faction that is taking its farm land and growing skag.
When someone is trying to grow a crop of brown that will land in your country and ruin countless lives. Then that is the moment they fore fit there rights.

Luan Pra bang

First off judging from your emotional response I take it that you do not believe in the Geneva convention for the Taleban then ? I cannot help but think that the majority of the Taleban are local, not from Bradford and they would see you the British troop as an invader, they would then have in their own eyes a right to defend themselves against an invading army, much as hate aspects of new labour I would be pretty pissed off if the Germans invaded to to enfoce a bit of regime change. What ever your views you must accept that we loose the right to complain about human rights if we deny them to other people ?
As for the Taleban and smack they actually reduced the growth of heroin and it has shot up to its highest ever levels after the war but none the less people will not ever want to face this reality.
With regards to conflict I have seen plenty thanks but luckily for me not in Afganistan more a home grown variety. I offered no personal view on things yet daring to question our countries morals and have a debate got you all het up and ranting . In my personal opinion I think a debate about so called western democracies abandoing our established views on treating prisoners is a fair one to have.
Before you get all excited I would like to point out that I have never complained about the war in Afganistan as the Taleban enforced possibly the most evil regime that has existed in the last 50 years but the series of events that led to that is a complex one that people need to think about to have any chance of creating lasting piece. Part of that thought chain has to be how to make a brutalized nation at war for 100's of years start having some humanist ideology.

Luan Pra bang

The reality is though that in this case binyan Mohamed may well be a wannabe terrorist but without a real trial we will never know. Confessions obtained under torture are meaning less and the question of the UK and USA endorsing torture is unaffected by wether or not he is guilty.

Martin2005

Seems strange that someone who argued so vehmently against 42 day detention is so unphased by people being locked up for YEARS without trial.

Or is this just your usual hypocrasy at work, if it was done by a Labour government then obviously it would be wrong, if it's done by the government of another country, well thats Ok then

Mus

iTrader: (2)

lua talks a lot of facts that some of you love to hate,

they might be closing guntanmo but im pretty sure they are opening something else like area 51 where no one knows what will happen in there.

finalzero

Why are people surprised that innocent people are being locked up.. This **** is about to happen here and to oridinary british people regardless of what race/religion you are.

DNA profiling, data mining and analysis etc etc - we will be governed by a machine essentially which will decide if we fit a particular profile.

The law in this country has very quietly done a u-turn where you are actually guilty until proven innocent and the law can detain you without actual evidence.

I remember hearing the term "premptive" and thinking wtf is going on.. Because someone somewhere decides you are guilty you get locked up for an indefinite amount.

I posted a link earlier about how evidence by so called experts is questionable at best so who knows how many innocent people are locked up and how many miscarriages of justice have taken place.

Now especially more, with cases such as corrupt officials, crooked financial institutes and organisations who all seem to connect back and forth through MP's to powerful business elites... you have to wonder how many judges are crooked as hell.

To quote a documentary I watched: "The law only serves those within the legal system.."

finalzero

There is a documentary about the various detention camps all over the place, immigraiton camps are just the tip of the iceberg.

These are not only created to hold so called problem people but eventually to curb and control the predicted and expected public revolt all over europe including the UK (and US).

Luan Pra bang

It seems odd that people are so worried about Muslims they miss the real threats to our way or life which is our own governments. The distractions of Iraq seem to hide the erosion of our own civil liberties.