What's on the outside...
#1
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What's on the outside...
...of the Universe?*
*This post is in the response to a request for more thoughts and quality questions from the mind of Spooky Mulder
*This post is in the response to a request for more thoughts and quality questions from the mind of Spooky Mulder
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The Universe is not infinite - that is a convenient concept because it is SO big.
Most mathematicians and physicists will say the Universe is finite. So what is on the outside - what is the Universe expanding into?
Most mathematicians and physicists will say the Universe is finite. So what is on the outside - what is the Universe expanding into?
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it's a meaningless question. our universe could be inside an atom in a red blood cell. a more interesting question is how many dimensions does the universe have.
[geekmode]Superstrings, D-branes, M-branes and K theory all seek to explain this.[/geekmode]
[geekmode]Superstrings, D-branes, M-branes and K theory all seek to explain this.[/geekmode]
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Maybe it's like this:
The last bit from The Men in Black
The last bit from The Men in Black
exactly. the marble scene. i forgot about that
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Isn't the Universe like the surface of a sphere? Eventually you'll get back to where you started (if you know where you're going & you've got some spare time on your hands) albeit essentially infinite as there is no end to it.
TX.
TX.
#13
There are enough theories about all these things, but they are still theories, not proof.
Its a fascinating thought about the size of space beyond the Universe. Sometimes I wonder whether all those galaxies will suddenly come to a full stop as they reach the edge, if there is one!
What was before the big bang, which is not yet proved anyway, even if it appears to be the best explanation so far, is another impossible thing to imagine.
The fact is, we just dont know. Maybe we will learn more definitive facts as time goes by and science improves. To just try to imagine the true vastness of the whole thing is just mindbending! Meanwhile, more theories will appear of course.
Les
Its a fascinating thought about the size of space beyond the Universe. Sometimes I wonder whether all those galaxies will suddenly come to a full stop as they reach the edge, if there is one!
What was before the big bang, which is not yet proved anyway, even if it appears to be the best explanation so far, is another impossible thing to imagine.
The fact is, we just dont know. Maybe we will learn more definitive facts as time goes by and science improves. To just try to imagine the true vastness of the whole thing is just mindbending! Meanwhile, more theories will appear of course.
Les
#15
Well there are 2 schools of thought, one is the universe is infinite and the other finite.
In the infinite universe, the universe isn't expanding into anything, it just that everything in the universe is stretching, eg, the distance between the galaxies is being stretched out as every point in the universe. As the universe is infinite, it is infinite to being with and therefore not expanding or changing in size.
If the universe is finite then since we are bound by the laws that what we know makes up our universe and what we can observe within it we cannot answer what is outside the universe.
Simple really......
In the infinite universe, the universe isn't expanding into anything, it just that everything in the universe is stretching, eg, the distance between the galaxies is being stretched out as every point in the universe. As the universe is infinite, it is infinite to being with and therefore not expanding or changing in size.
If the universe is finite then since we are bound by the laws that what we know makes up our universe and what we can observe within it we cannot answer what is outside the universe.
Simple really......
Last edited by jonc; 08 July 2009 at 02:49 PM.
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Every object which has mass has a gravitational pull so the theory runs that eventually the combined gravity of all the planets, stars etc will eventually slow the expansion completely and then start pulling it all back in again until you end up with one single unstable entity which explodes as starts the whole thing over again.
Essentially known as "The Big Crunch"
5t.
#18
Or the big crunch may not happen and that the universe will continue to expand infinitely and all matter within the universe will spread out so much that there will be nothing left.
The discovery of "dark energy" has the opposite affect to gravity and pushes against the universe and speeding up expansion.
The discovery of "dark energy" has the opposite affect to gravity and pushes against the universe and speeding up expansion.
Last edited by jonc; 08 July 2009 at 05:03 PM.
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We are only able to comprehend the three dimensions in which we exist, and "see" time passing.... but in the other dimensions the opposite may occur.
That's my view.
I also postulated that the red-shift off far off galaxies is a side-effect of the infinitely greater density of the matter within the universe soon after the big-bang. IMHO this would reduce the speed of light.
dunx
That's my view.
I also postulated that the red-shift off far off galaxies is a side-effect of the infinitely greater density of the matter within the universe soon after the big-bang. IMHO this would reduce the speed of light.
dunx
#20
Regarding the expansion, contraction.
Newton believed that the universe was static, but then one day some dude wrote to him saying that if Newton believes that all bodies in the universe have gravity then how come all those bodies dont just pull everything together on themselves ? Newton scratched his head and came up with an answer - because everything in the universe is so perfectly balanced, gravitational forces of each body is perfectly balanced out.
Later when Einstein introduced his theories after many nights at the patent office, it followed that the universe was indeed expanding, but at the same time it raised the same question as with Newtons theory. How can the universe be expanding if the gravitational forces should be pulling things together ? So Einstein scratched his head and came up with "dark matter" (he didnt call it dark matter at the time, but referred to it as mysterious matter that most of the space consisted of) that was balancing things out and keeping the universe constant so as not to propose something as crazy as expansionary universe. But he was later made to admit that the universe was indeed expanding after proof from Edwin Hubble who showed that galaxies were drifting apart.
The big crunch is a novelty idea along with big rip and big bounce etc.
So to answer the first question - If the universe is indeed expanding, then there is something for the universe to expand into so we can be sure that something exists outside our universe or does our universe create existence by converting matter?. So the answer seems to be that there is either something, or there is nothing outside of our universe.
Newton believed that the universe was static, but then one day some dude wrote to him saying that if Newton believes that all bodies in the universe have gravity then how come all those bodies dont just pull everything together on themselves ? Newton scratched his head and came up with an answer - because everything in the universe is so perfectly balanced, gravitational forces of each body is perfectly balanced out.
Later when Einstein introduced his theories after many nights at the patent office, it followed that the universe was indeed expanding, but at the same time it raised the same question as with Newtons theory. How can the universe be expanding if the gravitational forces should be pulling things together ? So Einstein scratched his head and came up with "dark matter" (he didnt call it dark matter at the time, but referred to it as mysterious matter that most of the space consisted of) that was balancing things out and keeping the universe constant so as not to propose something as crazy as expansionary universe. But he was later made to admit that the universe was indeed expanding after proof from Edwin Hubble who showed that galaxies were drifting apart.
The big crunch is a novelty idea along with big rip and big bounce etc.
So to answer the first question - If the universe is indeed expanding, then there is something for the universe to expand into so we can be sure that something exists outside our universe or does our universe create existence by converting matter?. So the answer seems to be that there is either something, or there is nothing outside of our universe.
Last edited by serega; 08 July 2009 at 05:43 PM.
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It is blatantly expanding into the "outer universe"
I have looked into this a little and read some fascinating thoughts, including a "ring donut" shaped one .
I personally think they key to this riddle is because we can only really handle the 3 dimensions, also read a cracking page once on the 4th dimension and if we could see this, we could see through things>? this train of thought put time as the 5th dimension for some reason.
I have looked into this a little and read some fascinating thoughts, including a "ring donut" shaped one .
I personally think they key to this riddle is because we can only really handle the 3 dimensions, also read a cracking page once on the 4th dimension and if we could see this, we could see through things>? this train of thought put time as the 5th dimension for some reason.
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#26
Or the big crunch may not happen and that the universe will continue to expand infinitely and all matter within the universe will spread out so much that there will be nothing left.
The discovery of "dark energy" has the opposite affect to gravity and pushes against the universe and speeding up expansion.
The discovery of "dark energy" has the opposite affect to gravity and pushes against the universe and speeding up expansion.
It is amazing how all these theories are assumed to be correct when in fact they have not been proved.
Les
#27
None of these theories have been proven, not even the universally accepted Big Bang theory. As you may know, gravity pulls everything together and with all the matter in the universe, expansion of the universe should be slowing down. However, recent discovery has shown that expansion of the universe is actually speeding up, so some energy, dark energy, out there is overcoming the pull of gravity accelerating the expansion.
Last edited by jonc; 09 July 2009 at 02:57 PM.
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I have a theory, and I would like anyone to prove me wrong! But I bet you can't!
My theory is that we are all part of a game, programmed by "other beings" to do and think everything we do. Like a huge version of "The Sims"
Go on prove me wrong!.... bet you can't!
My theory is that we are all part of a game, programmed by "other beings" to do and think everything we do. Like a huge version of "The Sims"
Go on prove me wrong!.... bet you can't!