Anyone watching the day the immigrants left?
24 February 2010, 09:51 PM
#2
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some attitude on there.... !!! makes you think !
seems the most are unable to accept any form of criticism
shame really
seems the most are unable to accept any form of criticism
shame really
Last edited by WRX_Dazza; 24 February 2010 at 09:53 PM.
24 February 2010, 09:59 PM
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24 February 2010, 10:25 PM
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24 February 2010, 10:51 PM
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Some very good points raised, and some almost biased reporting,you could
almost argue some were picked to give the end result
We had people like this in working environments long before we had an influx of migrant workers
On each group
The restaurant:
The three who didn't turn up..... says it all really
Give the young lad his due, he turned up and had a go. Unfortunately it wasn't for him. Perhaps if he'd stuck it out, he may have survived more than one day. The Boss seemed reasonable enough, and gave him a meal even even when he called it a day.
The Potato factory:
Again, the youngster who didn't turn up.. nothing new there.
The other two blokes, although they seemed hesitant (although was this due to judicious editing) they stuck it out and made it through.
What p*ssed me off though was that even after them saying they did well, apply for a job, consideration, etc. They heard nothing.
I had to laugh when they said they reckoned the line was running too fast lol. Welcome to the world of fast moving goods
The farmer:
Been there and done that, so it was really a non starter. you knew the outcome from the word go.
The Builder/ Carpenter:
Guy seemed, and showed he was very capable, shame the work couldn't have lasted.
It didn't really answer any questions though.
If people want to work, then they will work, but if you give people an easy way out (benefit culture) they is it any surprise they don't want to take work.
Mart
almost argue some were picked to give the end result
We had people like this in working environments long before we had an influx of migrant workers
On each group
The restaurant:
The three who didn't turn up..... says it all really
Give the young lad his due, he turned up and had a go. Unfortunately it wasn't for him. Perhaps if he'd stuck it out, he may have survived more than one day. The Boss seemed reasonable enough, and gave him a meal even even when he called it a day.
The Potato factory:
Again, the youngster who didn't turn up.. nothing new there.
The other two blokes, although they seemed hesitant (although was this due to judicious editing) they stuck it out and made it through.
What p*ssed me off though was that even after them saying they did well, apply for a job, consideration, etc. They heard nothing.
I had to laugh when they said they reckoned the line was running too fast lol. Welcome to the world of fast moving goods
The farmer:
Been there and done that, so it was really a non starter. you knew the outcome from the word go.
The Builder/ Carpenter:
Guy seemed, and showed he was very capable, shame the work couldn't have lasted.
It didn't really answer any questions though.
If people want to work, then they will work, but if you give people an easy way out (benefit culture) they is it any surprise they don't want to take work.
Mart
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24 February 2010, 11:18 PM
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As usual the program was biased, the result was predetermined by the people chosen to take part.
I was annoyed by the way the guys from the potato factory were treated from the film two of the guys did well but still no job.
The guy in the restaurant struggled with his job as he was out of his depth but if he was working in a plumbers merchant nobody would expect him to know what a ball valve was and why it was different from a gate valve with out product training so why would they expecting to know the differences between the dishes? and why would they expect him to know the difference between all the items on the menu!
The migrant asparagus pickers were experienced and therefore upto speed it would have been interesting to see what productivity would have been like after 2 weeks i suspect that the British workers would either have given up or were achieving the same level of productivity.
The people who didnt bother turning up are a waste of space.
Every person who comes in and takes a low skilled job then effectively means we are now paying a person to sit at home if all the migrant unskilled labour was surcharged with the cost of the person they are displacing to the benefits system then we would see the true cost of migrant labour plus the additional cost of any health and education.
The bottom line with 2.5 million unemployed we have no need for low skilled migrant labour all it is doing is keeping people on the benefit system by keeping wage rates so low people are trapped on the benefit system though i totally accept that there is people who dont want to work there is a large number who do want jobs but cant afford to move from benefits to the wages they would need to take to under cut migrants, migrants get round the minimum wage by working lots of unpaid over time therefore effectively working for a below minimum wage
I was annoyed by the way the guys from the potato factory were treated from the film two of the guys did well but still no job.
The guy in the restaurant struggled with his job as he was out of his depth but if he was working in a plumbers merchant nobody would expect him to know what a ball valve was and why it was different from a gate valve with out product training so why would they expecting to know the differences between the dishes? and why would they expect him to know the difference between all the items on the menu!
The migrant asparagus pickers were experienced and therefore upto speed it would have been interesting to see what productivity would have been like after 2 weeks i suspect that the British workers would either have given up or were achieving the same level of productivity.
The people who didnt bother turning up are a waste of space.
Every person who comes in and takes a low skilled job then effectively means we are now paying a person to sit at home if all the migrant unskilled labour was surcharged with the cost of the person they are displacing to the benefits system then we would see the true cost of migrant labour plus the additional cost of any health and education.
The bottom line with 2.5 million unemployed we have no need for low skilled migrant labour all it is doing is keeping people on the benefit system by keeping wage rates so low people are trapped on the benefit system though i totally accept that there is people who dont want to work there is a large number who do want jobs but cant afford to move from benefits to the wages they would need to take to under cut migrants, migrants get round the minimum wage by working lots of unpaid over time therefore effectively working for a below minimum wage
24 February 2010, 11:40 PM
#10
The benefits system is/should be a short term solution for people who are out of work for whatever reason (returning to worklife after illness, redundancy, temporary work etc.) If those people were showing willing, I wouldn't necessarily call for them to work to recieve what is most likely a short term payment.
It is the people who make a 'career' out of it that gets my back up. And it's always someone elses fault. Fair play, I missed the programme, but there are plenty of people out there who just wouldn't do a hard days work regardless if immigrants were pinching all the jobs or not (which I doubt they are) and while we have a benefits system that supports this (while often failing those who genuinely need it), there is no hope of things changing.
I'm a firm believer the whole system needs a re-think. It needs to prevent as much as possible, people abusing it, whilst making it possible for people to work in lower paid jobs and afford to do so.
24 February 2010, 11:44 PM
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this is exactly what i mean, people who live off benefits who don't work because it's not worth it. People actively looking for work are effectively 'working' looking for work.
24 February 2010, 11:55 PM
#12
It's no supprise that those who took part were, to put it mildly, cr@p. They did not have the right attitude to work and probably have never worked a proper hard days graft in their lives. The thing that struck me was that all of them complained and moaned about the work they were doing and not grateful that they were given an opportunity to work with possible employment at the end. Some were slow burners and tried their best, but it seems their best was not good enough. I'm happy that employers are able to employ migrants at lower wages for these "unskilled" jobs, keeps prices low for everyone else in the shop.
With regards to benefits, the system needs to be radically changed. Instead of handing out cash, it should be based on vouchers to be redeemed for basic necessities such as food and clothing and utilities (gas, electric, water, etc). If they want their flat screen TVs, games consoles, take away food etc, then they have to work for cash. There is no point in incentivising people to stay on the benefit system.
With regards to benefits, the system needs to be radically changed. Instead of handing out cash, it should be based on vouchers to be redeemed for basic necessities such as food and clothing and utilities (gas, electric, water, etc). If they want their flat screen TVs, games consoles, take away food etc, then they have to work for cash. There is no point in incentivising people to stay on the benefit system.
25 February 2010, 12:46 AM
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That was one of the points i was making cheap migrant labour when we have unemployed indigenous labour isn't saving you money because they maybe cheaper labouring on the building site or picking asparagus but you are having to pay significantly more income tax to support the person they have made unemployed to sit at home
and as a significant proportion of the migrant labour force with families gets state funded social housing you are paying for that as well, as their schooling and health care and the additional transport costs etc and as they are at the bottom of the income scale their contribution in terms of income tax is very small, if they are earning 14K a year as a potato packer they probably get tax credits so dont contribute to the country in real terms at all! plus all these benefits helps them undercut indigenous workers who need to pay a mortgage.
and as a significant proportion of the migrant labour force with families gets state funded social housing you are paying for that as well, as their schooling and health care and the additional transport costs etc and as they are at the bottom of the income scale their contribution in terms of income tax is very small, if they are earning 14K a year as a potato packer they probably get tax credits so dont contribute to the country in real terms at all! plus all these benefits helps them undercut indigenous workers who need to pay a mortgage.
25 February 2010, 01:11 AM
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Although the wider study on which this show is based and tried to emulate in its 'experiment' tells a slightly different story.
Around Wisbech there are around 9,000 migrant workers who are working. Before they came there were not 9,000 vacancies, they have created new economic activities. Now this may well be that they have done so by working long hours for lower wages - but evidence suggests they have not 'stolen' jobs from the locals, but created new ones.
Where there is a shift, the 9,000 migrant workers and their increased economic activity have created a significant number of new white collar jobs, typically fulfilled from the indigenous workforce.
Also the spend from the migrant workers creates local economic stimulation from their spending.
Overall it would seem that migrant worker ultimately expand local economies and create more jobs than they 'apparently' take.
Around Wisbech there are around 9,000 migrant workers who are working. Before they came there were not 9,000 vacancies, they have created new economic activities. Now this may well be that they have done so by working long hours for lower wages - but evidence suggests they have not 'stolen' jobs from the locals, but created new ones.
Where there is a shift, the 9,000 migrant workers and their increased economic activity have created a significant number of new white collar jobs, typically fulfilled from the indigenous workforce.
Also the spend from the migrant workers creates local economic stimulation from their spending.
Overall it would seem that migrant worker ultimately expand local economies and create more jobs than they 'apparently' take.
25 February 2010, 07:25 AM
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Although the wider study on which this show is based and tried to emulate in its 'experiment' tells a slightly different story.
Around Wisbech there are around 9,000 migrant workers who are working. Before they came there were not 9,000 vacancies, they have created new economic activities. Now this may well be that they have done so by working long hours for lower wages - but evidence suggests they have not 'stolen' jobs from the locals, but created new ones.
Where there is a shift, the 9,000 migrant workers and their increased economic activity have created a significant number of new white collar jobs, typically fulfilled from the indigenous workforce.
Also the spend from the migrant workers creates local economic stimulation from their spending.
Overall it would seem that migrant worker ultimately expand local economies and create more jobs than they 'apparently' take.
Around Wisbech there are around 9,000 migrant workers who are working. Before they came there were not 9,000 vacancies, they have created new economic activities. Now this may well be that they have done so by working long hours for lower wages - but evidence suggests they have not 'stolen' jobs from the locals, but created new ones.
Where there is a shift, the 9,000 migrant workers and their increased economic activity have created a significant number of new white collar jobs, typically fulfilled from the indigenous workforce.
Also the spend from the migrant workers creates local economic stimulation from their spending.
Overall it would seem that migrant worker ultimately expand local economies and create more jobs than they 'apparently' take.
I imagine the same could be said if the 'migrant' workforce where indigenous just lived in the area whilst there was work for them, a bit like the foreign migrants do. This is what used to happen.
I cannot see how it makes sense to have people not working and living off of state provided benefits who can and are able to work just do not, allowing workers to come in from other countries to do jobs that our unemployed can easily do. They may need to travel, they may need to stay away drung the week or for weeks at a time but that is only the same as a lot of people already do or have done.
25 February 2010, 08:18 AM
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We seem to treat the long term unemployed, those who choose to live off of benefits (not all unempoyed obviously, you know what i mean) and not work and contribute like they need special treatment with kid gloves which just seems wrong.
Oh and for balance i speak as somone unemployed, unable to claim JSA or any other benefits and having to fund my own retraining courses through our meager savings.
Lisa i agree with comments wholeheartedly
Last edited by The Zohan; 25 February 2010 at 08:35 AM.
25 February 2010, 09:42 AM
#17
Heres the crux of this issue. An employer will always look to using a cheaper and more efficient workforce. The migrants are willing to work longer hours for less pay whereas the British counterparts don't see it worth their while to work as hard for as little wage when they can claim more on benefits. There is no incentive for them to do a hard days work. How and why should an employer increase their wage costs to encourage indigenous workers to work for them? It is the cheaper labour that allows some of these businesses to continue trading.
The tax burden would be the same except that labour costs would be higher and would be reflected in consumer prices and therefore benefits would also have to rise to reflect the increase in cost of living. Based on those individuals featured on the programme, we'd also have a less efficient workforce who would look for any excuse to slack off work and do not much more than moan and complain. (though I understand this is not a full representation of all unemployed and were "selected" for this programme, though I would argue it's not far off from the truth!)
Reminds me of the programme "Bobski the Builder" where they pitted a Polish builder with that of a British builder....conclusion was also similar.
The tax burden would be the same except that labour costs would be higher and would be reflected in consumer prices and therefore benefits would also have to rise to reflect the increase in cost of living. Based on those individuals featured on the programme, we'd also have a less efficient workforce who would look for any excuse to slack off work and do not much more than moan and complain. (though I understand this is not a full representation of all unemployed and were "selected" for this programme, though I would argue it's not far off from the truth!)
Reminds me of the programme "Bobski the Builder" where they pitted a Polish builder with that of a British builder....conclusion was also similar.
25 February 2010, 09:49 AM
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Heres the crux of this issue. An employer will always look to using a cheaper and more efficient workforce. The migrants are willing to work longer hours for less pay whereas the British counterparts don't see it worth their while to work as hard for as little wage when they can claim more on benefits. There is no incentive for them to do a hard days work. How and why should an employer increase their wage costs to encourage indigenous workers to work for them? It is the cheaper labour that allows some of these businesses to continue trading.
The tax burden would be the same except that labour costs would be higher and would be reflected in consumer prices and therefore benefits would also have to rise to reflect the increase in cost of living. Based on those individuals featured on the programme, we'd also have a less efficient workforce who would look for any excuse to slack off work and do not much more than moan and complain. (though I understand this is not a full representation of all unemployed and were "selected" for this programme, though I would argue it's not far off from the truth!)
Reminds me of the programme "Bobski the Builder" where they pitted a Polish builder with that of a British builder....conclusion was also similar.
The tax burden would be the same except that labour costs would be higher and would be reflected in consumer prices and therefore benefits would also have to rise to reflect the increase in cost of living. Based on those individuals featured on the programme, we'd also have a less efficient workforce who would look for any excuse to slack off work and do not much more than moan and complain. (though I understand this is not a full representation of all unemployed and were "selected" for this programme, though I would argue it's not far off from the truth!)
Reminds me of the programme "Bobski the Builder" where they pitted a Polish builder with that of a British builder....conclusion was also similar.
For those that bring thier families here (and agian why not if you can) the care system picks up the tab for health and education, more importantly putting a strain on the health and education systems with the influx of children who do not speak English who have to be found shcool places in already crowded schools and tutored to speak English and got up to speed with the rest of the class - one example of many.
It is not just about the tax implications it is about the wider story.
Surely it has to be better to have as close to full employment from within the UK and top up with migrant workers as required.
Last edited by The Zohan; 25 February 2010 at 10:11 AM.
25 February 2010, 09:54 AM
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How does that work?
God forbid that I don't have a job one day but how much sitting at home watching TV and playing xbox can you do? I would be fed up with in 2 weeks and willing to do anything!
My wife is from Indonesia and she just can not get her head round all the benefits people get in the UK, she has even tried to explain it to people when she goes back to Indo and they can not mentally get there head round it either. "so they don't work, don't pay tax but they get house, money, sat TV car etc all free????"
25 February 2010, 10:00 AM
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My brother in law could not claim JSA because he had not worked enough full time employment over the last few years (even though he had worked every week) yet xbox boy in the program has been claiming JSA for 5 YEARS and never had a job!!!
How does that work?
God forbid that I don't have a job one day but how much sitting at home watching TV and playing xbox can you do? I would be fed up with in 2 weeks and willing to do anything!
My wife is from Indonesia and she just can not get her head round all the benefits people get in the UK, she has even tried to explain it to people when she goes back to Indo and they can not mentally get there head round it either. "so they don't work, don't pay tax but they get house, money, sat TV car etc all free????"
How does that work?
God forbid that I don't have a job one day but how much sitting at home watching TV and playing xbox can you do? I would be fed up with in 2 weeks and willing to do anything!
My wife is from Indonesia and she just can not get her head round all the benefits people get in the UK, she has even tried to explain it to people when she goes back to Indo and they can not mentally get there head round it either. "so they don't work, don't pay tax but they get house, money, sat TV car etc all free????"
I cannot claim JSA as i was self employed back in 2003/04 and although i paid my stamp whilst self employed and i have been continuously employed from 1980-2001 and paid NI and tax for that period (over a grand a month from 1995-2001) i still did not qualify.
I currently apply for 20-30 jobs per week and rarely get a response, these are 'menial' roles as i would just prefer to work than not. I cannot wait until i have got my training out of the way - believe it or not as a swimming instuctor (ex international level swimmer) and i can start to earn again. Shortage of swimming instructors would you believe.
Last edited by The Zohan; 25 February 2010 at 10:13 AM.
25 February 2010, 10:13 AM
#21
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Sadly, the government is in a catch 22. Some of us don't see why we should give them a penny and some of us would shout that its against human rights and stopping benefit money would put lots of kids into extreme poverty. The goverment would fail to meet child poverty targets and we would be up in arms about that.
As for the program out of 100 of applicants these clowns were the best they could come up with??? Or those more likely to screw it up and make for good old fashioned car crash TV.
25 February 2010, 10:18 AM
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This is all about the operation of a free market. If migrant workers are cheaper and harder working, then why on earth would an employer want to take on the 'locals' (although I think it's easy to over generalise here).
I do agree that fit and healthy people not serious about finding work should not be supported by the state, that in itself should change people motivation I suppose.
I do agree that fit and healthy people not serious about finding work should not be supported by the state, that in itself should change people motivation I suppose.
25 February 2010, 10:23 AM
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This is all about the operation of a free market. If migrant workers are cheaper and harder working, then why on earth would an employer want to take on the 'locals' (although I think it's easy to over generalise here).
I do agree that fit and healthy people not serious about finding work should not be supported by the state, that in itself should change people motivation I suppose.
I do agree that fit and healthy people not serious about finding work should not be supported by the state, that in itself should change people motivation I suppose.
Free Market, only free and pretty much a one way market is it not and it is at the cost of this country and the people of this country.
It would be better to employ the long term unemployed with basic paid jobs and top up thier pay to the same level of dole, maybe 10% more (plus travel allowance if required), than sat at home dole and have them employed and contributing towards thier pensions and costs surely this has to be better than bringing in workers from different countries whilst our own perfectly fit and able population sit on thier asses able to work, just not willing to. This is just so wrong!
Alternatively reduce the dole for those who do not want to work so they have to work - give them food/clothing vouchers, not money.
Last edited by The Zohan; 25 February 2010 at 10:31 AM.
25 February 2010, 10:30 AM
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Free Market, only free and pretty much a one way market is it not and it is at the cost of this country and the people of this country.
It would be better to employ the long term unemployed with basic paid jobs and top up thier pay to the same level of dole, maybe 10% more (plus travel allowance if required), than sat at home dole and have them employed and contributing towards thier pensions and costs surely this has to be better than bringing in workers from different countries whilst our own perfectly fit and able population sit on thier asses able to work, just not willing to. This is just so wrong!
Alternatively reduce the dole for those who do not want to work so they have to work - give them food/clothing vouchers, not money.
It would be better to employ the long term unemployed with basic paid jobs and top up thier pay to the same level of dole, maybe 10% more (plus travel allowance if required), than sat at home dole and have them employed and contributing towards thier pensions and costs surely this has to be better than bringing in workers from different countries whilst our own perfectly fit and able population sit on thier asses able to work, just not willing to. This is just so wrong!
Alternatively reduce the dole for those who do not want to work so they have to work - give them food/clothing vouchers, not money.
25 February 2010, 10:33 AM
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TBH i am not sure why people should get more than Min wage equivilant whilst on benefits anyway, without good reason.
25 February 2010, 11:01 AM
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I was so annoying seeing fit and able people not willing to work.
They need a swift kick up the jacksy
25 February 2010, 01:02 PM
#28
Of course it would, but there's the saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. There are a lot more work shy slackers that are doing well on benefits than there are people who genuinely want a job and are not afraid to of a little hard work.
25 February 2010, 01:16 PM
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I thought it was pretty revealing. It was disappointing to see how incapable or unwilling some of the Brits were and how quick they were to find the excuses.
It is hardly surprising that foreign labour is to be preferred when they are willing to work at the job and do it properly, and at a lower cost to the employer.
Les
It is hardly surprising that foreign labour is to be preferred when they are willing to work at the job and do it properly, and at a lower cost to the employer.
Les
