Islamic face-veil part of 'British way of life'
16 October 2010, 11:05 AM
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Islamic face-veil part of 'British way of life'
What do you think?
Personally I find the face-veil distasteful, but I grudgingly accept the right of someone to wear it in their private life no matter the idiocy of the decision. I'm opposed to it in public life, I don't want to see Doctors or Teachers or anyone in government wear it etc. Religion should stay out of public life. It should be banned from school for kids also as it inhibits the process of socialisation which school provides.
I find it interesting how some muslim women in the UK (and west) seem to be adopting the face-veil as a symbol of refusal-defiance against modernity. It's fair to say their Mothers probably didn't wear the veil. I work in North Africa ATM and I probably see a lesser % of muslim women in the face-veil than in the Manchester Arndale! Fascinating how they have adopted a historical symbol of their own oppression (to the patriarchy) in the name of personal freedom! Irony in the extreme.
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Personally I find the face-veil distasteful, but I grudgingly accept the right of someone to wear it in their private life no matter the idiocy of the decision. I'm opposed to it in public life, I don't want to see Doctors or Teachers or anyone in government wear it etc. Religion should stay out of public life. It should be banned from school for kids also as it inhibits the process of socialisation which school provides.
I find it interesting how some muslim women in the UK (and west) seem to be adopting the face-veil as a symbol of refusal-defiance against modernity. It's fair to say their Mothers probably didn't wear the veil. I work in North Africa ATM and I probably see a lesser % of muslim women in the face-veil than in the Manchester Arndale! Fascinating how they have adopted a historical symbol of their own oppression (to the patriarchy) in the name of personal freedom! Irony in the extreme.
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Islamic face-veil part of 'British way of life'
The full Islamic face-veil is a part of the “British way of life” and should be celebrated along with religious symbols such as the crucifix, according to a report published today.
Opponents of the veil claim it oppresses women and presents a barrier between those who wear traditional dress and the rest of society.
But in a new report from think-tank Civitas, Alveena Malik, a former faith adviser to the last Labour government, said the test of whether religious symbols are appropriate should be based on whether they are practical.
Politicians in France and Belgium have voted in favour of banning the full veil, or “niqab”, and other European countries are thought to be considering similar action.
In a new report, Women, Islam and Western Liberalism, Mrs Malik said: “We in Britain need to take a different direction from others in Europe and to accept the veil as part of a modern British way of life.”
She continued: “The wearing of religious symbols, including the full veil, should be a fundamental human right of an individual in both the public and private sphere.
“The real test for religious symbols in the public sphere should always be: ‘Does the wearing of a symbol (such as the kirpan, turban, yarmulke, crucifix and the veil) hinder a citizen’s ability to perform their public civic duties?’”
Britain is in a "unique" position to embrace such a public display of faith because of the role the church plays in the affairs of the state and its "multicultural diversity".
Mrs Malik was appointed by last government to a panel of faith advisers for the Department for Communities. She has overseen British Council guidance on “intercultural dialogue”.
The full Islamic face-veil is a part of the “British way of life” and should be celebrated along with religious symbols such as the crucifix, according to a report published today.
Opponents of the veil claim it oppresses women and presents a barrier between those who wear traditional dress and the rest of society.
But in a new report from think-tank Civitas, Alveena Malik, a former faith adviser to the last Labour government, said the test of whether religious symbols are appropriate should be based on whether they are practical.
Politicians in France and Belgium have voted in favour of banning the full veil, or “niqab”, and other European countries are thought to be considering similar action.
In a new report, Women, Islam and Western Liberalism, Mrs Malik said: “We in Britain need to take a different direction from others in Europe and to accept the veil as part of a modern British way of life.”
She continued: “The wearing of religious symbols, including the full veil, should be a fundamental human right of an individual in both the public and private sphere.
“The real test for religious symbols in the public sphere should always be: ‘Does the wearing of a symbol (such as the kirpan, turban, yarmulke, crucifix and the veil) hinder a citizen’s ability to perform their public civic duties?’”
Britain is in a "unique" position to embrace such a public display of faith because of the role the church plays in the affairs of the state and its "multicultural diversity".
Mrs Malik was appointed by last government to a panel of faith advisers for the Department for Communities. She has overseen British Council guidance on “intercultural dialogue”.
16 October 2010, 11:16 AM
#2
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I hate it, if I wear my bike helmet anwhere then I'm potentianally going to do some thing dodgy ie rob a bank but they can wear these into banks and petrol stations.
think I might get one and then rob a post office somewhere
think I might get one and then rob a post office somewhere
16 October 2010, 11:26 AM
#3
Personally I see it as a symbol of oppression.
To think this is what the feminists burnt their bras for in years gone by only to see this in "modern" Britain. When women's rights movement in the Uk have spanned over a century demanding equal treatment to men, what has been gained will be flushed down the toilet and we'll end up going back to the dark ages due to these brainwashed fanatics.
(technically, I know bra burning didn't actually happen, as it was something penned by media crtitics of the era, but its phrase is often used and we all know the jist of it).
To think this is what the feminists burnt their bras for in years gone by only to see this in "modern" Britain. When women's rights movement in the Uk have spanned over a century demanding equal treatment to men, what has been gained will be flushed down the toilet and we'll end up going back to the dark ages due to these brainwashed fanatics.
(technically, I know bra burning didn't actually happen, as it was something penned by media crtitics of the era, but its phrase is often used and we all know the jist of it).
Last edited by ALi-B; 16 October 2010 at 11:32 AM. Reason: bad english day
16 October 2010, 11:46 AM
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I've got to be honest, I don't know enough about these religions to comment and have avoided the Islamic thread because of this.
However, it seems to me that if you have these people and their religions in this country then they have to be allowed to conduct themselves according to their religion.
But, if thats the case how can we then complain that certain parts of their religion we find unacceptable. Your either forced to keep quiet and put up or open your mouth ala GC8 and get shot down for having an opinion - albeit one expressed a bit "extremely"
Do I want these people and their religions in this country - no I dont. Do I accept it as part of modern society - sort of.
However, it seems to me that if you have these people and their religions in this country then they have to be allowed to conduct themselves according to their religion.
But, if thats the case how can we then complain that certain parts of their religion we find unacceptable. Your either forced to keep quiet and put up or open your mouth ala GC8 and get shot down for having an opinion - albeit one expressed a bit "extremely"
Do I want these people and their religions in this country - no I dont. Do I accept it as part of modern society - sort of.
16 October 2010, 11:59 AM
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I dont believe it is part of their religious teachings to have to wear these veils etc. I think it is just part of their way of life and we should be able to say that if they want to live in our country, then they have to accept our rules as we would have to in their country under pain of a lot of trouble if we didn't.
Les
Les
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16 October 2010, 12:24 PM
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I can understand it is part of their religion, but when in Rome.
I actually feel sorry for the women as by wearing these they are highlighting that they accept they are second class citizens and not equals.
I actually feel sorry for the women as by wearing these they are highlighting that they accept they are second class citizens and not equals.
16 October 2010, 12:31 PM
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My complaints aren't with their wearing of them but more so the practicability of wearing them for day to day use. 2 examples...
1. When driving. The slit is so thin it has to affect their peripheral vision when driving.
2. A more personal experience. When I went for an eye test about 18 months ago I had a woman do the test wearing a full veil. No issue with that as I'm tolerant of their beliefs. But she was unable to see correctly or carry out the tests on my eyes properly due to constantly fidgeting with the tiny 1/2-3/4" slit she had to see through. After the prescription was given I wasn't happy that it was accurate to my vision so went back the next day and had another test done. Was by another woman who was polite enough and came back with a totally different prescription. I mentioned the day before and how I wasn't 100% with the first prescription and the lady commented that I wasn't the first to question it
All good and well wearing it for your beliefs but if it hinders your ability to do your job....
1. When driving. The slit is so thin it has to affect their peripheral vision when driving.
2. A more personal experience. When I went for an eye test about 18 months ago I had a woman do the test wearing a full veil. No issue with that as I'm tolerant of their beliefs. But she was unable to see correctly or carry out the tests on my eyes properly due to constantly fidgeting with the tiny 1/2-3/4" slit she had to see through. After the prescription was given I wasn't happy that it was accurate to my vision so went back the next day and had another test done. Was by another woman who was polite enough and came back with a totally different prescription. I mentioned the day before and how I wasn't 100% with the first prescription and the lady commented that I wasn't the first to question it
All good and well wearing it for your beliefs but if it hinders your ability to do your job....
16 October 2010, 12:34 PM
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The full Islamic face-veil is a part of the “British way of life” and should be celebrated along with religious symbols such as the crucifix,
Wasn't like that when that woman was getting suspended from British airways for wearing a crucifix.
16 October 2010, 12:45 PM
#11
Completely agree! A bit off topic but the same can be said for A LOT of designer glasses, which give virtually no peripheral vision because of the thick side frames. I deliberately didn't buy such a pair for this reason.
16 October 2010, 01:17 PM
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Its not a part of British life, its a part of a single culture which should adapt better to British life, and even the Muslim's I know (and I stay with a muslim woman as I rent a room off her) resents women being oppressed like this (even though the wearers say its a part of their religion 
yet the Koran says otherwise).
We should do what the french do, just stamp down on it rather than over look it in the grand British tradition, before it bites us in the ***!
Tony
yet the Koran says otherwise).We should do what the french do, just stamp down on it rather than over look it in the grand British tradition, before it bites us in the ***!
Tony
16 October 2010, 01:46 PM
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As already said you can't go any were with a crash helmet on i.e fuel station shop or bank! but these little ninja's / letterbox people can were them in all of these sitiations unfair to me we can't were a hoody without getting looked at like crap.
16 October 2010, 01:53 PM
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I have no problem at all with Muslims, having a few as friends, but I find this garment offensive.
I have said many times, it's like a load of grim reapers creeping up on you and it has no place in our Country.
I hope this comment does not offend my Muslim friends, but that's the way I feel.
It should be banned, like other braver Countries than ours, have done.
I have said many times, it's like a load of grim reapers creeping up on you and it has no place in our Country.
I hope this comment does not offend my Muslim friends, but that's the way I feel.
It should be banned, like other braver Countries than ours, have done.
16 October 2010, 02:07 PM
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Its not a part of British life, its a part of a single culture which should adapt better to British life, and even the Muslim's I know (and I stay with a muslim woman as I rent a room off her) resents women being oppressed like this (even though the wearers say its a part of their religion yet the Koran says otherwise).
We should do what the french do, just stamp down on it rather than over look it in the grand British tradition, before it bites us in the ***!
Tony
yet the Koran says otherwise).We should do what the french do, just stamp down on it rather than over look it in the grand British tradition, before it bites us in the ***!
Tony
16 October 2010, 02:07 PM
#18
How long would it take plod to pull you if you went down town dressed like this??
Surely it is some type of 'ism' or 'ist' is it not?
To the extream degree. ****** part of Britsh life my PC left boIIock.
Surely it is some type of 'ism' or 'ist' is it not?
To the extream degree. ****** part of Britsh life my PC left boIIock.
Last edited by Glowplug; 16 October 2010 at 02:08 PM.
16 October 2010, 03:13 PM
#19
I really dont care, if they want to wear it to make a point then thats their luck out, when I was a kid there were Muslims and I never saw one, this has all kicked off since 9/11, Afghanistan etc. It is entirely up to them and the fact people react to it means they do it all the more, now to me, wearing that all the time isnt exactly practical, looks stupid and it cant be pleasant so why should I care, they have taken a symbol of male repression and control and turned it into a bit of rebellion against their evil infidel hosts.
16 October 2010, 03:14 PM
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They act like second class so I treat them like second class.
Our local petrol station has it right, they will only serve the little parasites through the little pigeonhole, they are not allowed in to the shop.
Our local petrol station has it right, they will only serve the little parasites through the little pigeonhole, they are not allowed in to the shop.
16 October 2010, 03:39 PM
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16 October 2010, 03:59 PM
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We should do what the french do, just stamp down on it rather than over look it in the grand British tradition, before it bites us in the ***!
Agree with Tony Burns in that the British need to address this issue of being pushovers and do something positive about re-establishing exactly what is 'British' and bring back the seemingly long lost values and traditions of 'Britishness.'
Agree with Tony Burns in that the British need to address this issue of being pushovers and do something positive about re-establishing exactly what is 'British' and bring back the seemingly long lost values and traditions of 'Britishness.'
Last edited by mouse555; 16 October 2010 at 04:01 PM.
16 October 2010, 05:00 PM
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I'm in two minds about it. On the one hand I don't really want the government dictating what we can and can't wear. If they're going to ban something it should be fat women with muffin tops wearing low-rise jeans or men with beer bellies wearing too short t-shirts.
On the other hand I don't see why the full-face veil is necessary, my next door neighbour is muslim and she always dresses very modestly but with the long head scarf thing (sorry don't know the correct term), can always see the whole of her face.
The full black outfit must be so hot in high summer.
On the other hand I don't see why the full-face veil is necessary, my next door neighbour is muslim and she always dresses very modestly but with the long head scarf thing (sorry don't know the correct term), can always see the whole of her face.
The full black outfit must be so hot in high summer.
16 October 2010, 05:05 PM
#25
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Its funny how we find ourselves always talking about the same ethnic group. I'm sure we've all had the odd run with afro-carribean types (although only ever been mugged by a group of asians) but we never seem to complain about the chinese in this country - unless we think they are flogging us sweet and sour cat.
Always the same issues, always the same group.
Always the same issues, always the same group.
16 October 2010, 05:17 PM
#27
Its funny how we find ourselves always talking about the same ethnic group. I'm sure we've all had the odd run with afro-carribean types (although only ever been mugged by a group of asians) but we never seem to complain about the chinese in this country - unless we think they are flogging us sweet and sour cat.
Always the same issues, always the same group.
Always the same issues, always the same group.
If they/you want to live an islamic life style, do it behind closed doors or **** off to islamibad.
16 October 2010, 06:10 PM
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Britishness, you could say that your proud to be British, the British have never hidden behind veils, they like to be seen to be open, to be seen to be British, recognised as British (ok the dodgy union jack tee shirts were never a good idea, neither were the speedo's ) but we have never hidden who we are, even Asian's (as a few people put asians down as not being british) but there are many Asian's who are proud to be British, then there are the few who hide from the fact, and to be honest with you, those are not British as they do not uphold the ideal's of our culture or country, if they dont want to be British then they can go and live elsewhere, but if you want to be British, uphold our standards, our Ideals etc, no matter what colour or religion, then help yourselves 
im all for that 
Tony
) but we have never hidden who we are, even Asian's (as a few people put asians down as not being british) but there are many Asian's who are proud to be British, then there are the few who hide from the fact, and to be honest with you, those are not British as they do not uphold the ideal's of our culture or country, if they dont want to be British then they can go and live elsewhere, but if you want to be British, uphold our standards, our Ideals etc, no matter what colour or religion, then help yourselves im all for that Tony
16 October 2010, 06:27 PM
#30
Britishness, you could say that your proud to be British, the British have never hidden behind veils, they like to be seen to be open, to be seen to be British, recognised as British (ok the dodgy union jack tee shirts were never a good idea, neither were the speedo's ) but we have never hidden who we are, even Asian's (as a few people put asians down as not being british) but there are many Asian's who are proud to be British, then there are the few who hide from the fact, and to be honest with you, those are not British as they do not uphold the ideal's of our culture or country, if they dont want to be British then they can go and live elsewhere, but if you want to be British, uphold our standards, our Ideals etc, no matter what colour or religion, then help yourselves im all for that
Tony
) but we have never hidden who we are, even Asian's (as a few people put asians down as not being british) but there are many Asian's who are proud to be British, then there are the few who hide from the fact, and to be honest with you, those are not British as they do not uphold the ideal's of our culture or country, if they dont want to be British then they can go and live elsewhere, but if you want to be British, uphold our standards, our Ideals etc, no matter what colour or religion, then help yourselves im all for that Tony