warrenm2

So it seems that the threat of people leaving (and some already have left) was enough for Hollande's "tax the rich" policy to bite the dust, before it was even implemented. And frankly, good riddance. It's time this class war nonsense is finally discarded in the dustbin of history. It simply doesn't work

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20864114

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I disagree.
How much money do some people want, before they are stisfied? How much better standard of living over the plebs do they NEED?

Far better if countries like France, and the UK if we had the cojones, to say to these people, "Fine. Leave if you want. But if you do, you can never, ever set foot in this country again unless you pay us the back-tax!"..

See how many STILL go.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Are you an advocate of Laisse Faire Capitalism and do you think France should bring it back?

warrenm2

I'm an advocate of the Laffer Curve. And France is going down the tubes by doing it. The evidence is there, the rich leave and the tax take falls. Simples. Same thing as Amazon et al moving their affairs to Luxemborg, lower taxes. Raising tax rates is financial suicide. Despite all the "soak the rich" ignorant comments....

jef

iTrader: (13)

its a difficult one to assess really

once you have x amount of personal wealth, or your buisness has met its stakeholders needs ect, re-investment has been accounted for plus and other "perks" why not give a bit more?
so these people just up sticks and move to stay wealthy beyond there wildest needs/wants? in the words of the great Kev.in - how much fcking money do these people need?!

on the flip side, your entrepenuer or just hard working man working his buisness up and paying all along the way, may feel slightly disgruntled at giving a large whack back to a goverment who seem to squander/waste/give away far in excess of whats required - and so wish not to give so much.
but ultimately if youve gained your wealth in a country, even though youve provided employment ect and paid your taxes then really id say you have some kind of obligation. even if its not a tax per se, but a scheme of sorts where they "donate" over and above and then can chip into ideas they would like to see to fruition with the primary emphasis not really being on gaing more wealth?

just bubbling some thoughts really lol
in that case leave, but my objection would be to people constantly swapping there money around, moving it here there and everywhere to avoid paying tax

dpb

They can't all fit into luxembourg !

CrisPDuk

The trouble with people like you, is that you only ever see the one side if anything

Has it never occurred to you that people who get of their ***** and earn what they have, might be more prepared to pay higher taxes, if they didn't witness so much of what they already pay being squandered on the feckless and workshy

Suresh

I expect your standard of living massively exceeds the average of the planet. How much do you NEED FFS? How about you GIVE away everything that you have which is above the world average - or even better be forced to do so whether you like it or not. When you have done your bit to equalise wealth distribution then come and talk to me. Until then please FRO. Fair?

scoobynutta555

The point surely is why is the tax so high in the first place. It's so high cause we spend far too much on benefits and inflated public sector. Cutting taxes on commerce and individuals will actually see more tax being raised.

dpb

The real problem is the other end, not cutting the average blokes lifestyle, this is just a diversion!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And what does THAT have to do with me, pray tell?

The trouble with people like you is you are quite ready to jump on others without knowing sod-all about them, and not much about owt else.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

What you EXPECT ( I think you mean assume), and what is the truth are two very different things.

Perhaps it would be better, in your case, to "expect" a little less, eh?

scoobynutta555

Furthermore with increasingly tax savvy multinationals you'll see corporation tax increasingly fall, even faster than it has in the past decade despite ever larger profits. The rich, even quite modest earners, will simply find ways of avoiding tax.

There'll come a point in this country where there will be a truly massive gulf between public spending and income. Dwarfing the difference we have now. I don't expect to see a pension at all, certainly not before I'm 80. I can't for the life of me see why any form of benefit is paid to someone who's young and healthy and who's out of work. It's a big world out there.

SJ_Skyline

If you were able to take advantage of tax-efficient schemes, surely you would?

Pension sacrifice and child care vouchers to name two...

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

But no one is being asked to give away EVERYTHING above the world average, what a daft comment

jods

Apparently it is possible to fit the entire population of the world into an area the size of the UK.


I wish the powers that be would stop trying to PROVE it.

GlesgaKiss

The problem which necessitates high taxes is the lack of understanding of the people with the power to spend. They don't realise the consequences of their profligacy, because of the way the system works. So you get the likes of the Edinburgh tram project, which is like something the Soviets would do to a city they'd want as a showpiece to convince the world everything was brilliant there.

Suresh

It's easy to require something of others (a minority who cant fight back even) instead of doing something yourself first. The socialist argument is that wealth inequality is unjust. So how can it be that these same people are happy with the inequality between themselves and the rest of the planet? How can people waste money on their hobbies knowing that up to 20,000 children die every day through malnutrition. How much do they NEED?

Hypocrisy doesn't really describe it. If you still don't understand get an adult to explain it to you

"dpb" has hit he nail on the head concerning artificially sustaining lifestyles from the public purse. How many government employees does the world need for example? It usually doesn't turn out well if the elephant in the room continues to be ignored...

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

What? As opposed to a child like you?

You are very good at frotihing at the mouth, but not very good at making a cohesive point. Maybe you should work on that for your New Year's Resolution

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

75 percent is obscene, we pay too much anyway, most individuals will find a way round it, tax needs to be fair and unavoidable, not just spanking the same few people to finance government spending and subsidise non workers. Everyone should pay say twenty percent of everything they earn above the lower limit, close the loopholes. I can't see why someone with millions needs to avoid a twenty percent tax, that is just greed pure and simple.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I'm a little surprised that nobody so far has pointed out that this had nothing to do with his 75% tax rate law being stopped. The Beeb news article, and the editorial side-column in particular, are both pretty clear that it had to be canned in its original form for what really amounts to little more than a procedural irregularity. As soon as it's rewritten (which you can bet your bottom dollar it will be, unless Hollande and the rest of his crew are all suddenly struck down by lightning) to properly take into account the issue of joint household/spousal earnings, it will get voted through.

As to the fairness of the scheme, I think it's worth pointing out that the 75% tax rate is just one small component of Hollande's overall tax and spending plans, which he hopes will bring in or save 30 Billion Euros in total (10 Billion from individual taxation, 10 Billion from corporate taxation, and 10 Billion from government spending cuts). Among other tax changes on individuals, there's also a new 45% rate being introduced on incomes between 150,000 and 1 million Euros, an increase in the ISF 'wealth tax' (a tax on actual net worth, which kicks in at anything above 1 Million), and various other changes to exemptions, thresholds and so on.

Overall, I don't think his proposals are anything like as mad as the stuff Mitterand brought in back in 1981, and I would imagine the public mood will be very different towards them also, even if the 75% rate keeps making headlines with people like Depardieu upping sticks across the border.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It's a pretty big disincentive to actually try and earn much more than the threshold level, that's for sure.

GlesgaKiss

It's a fair enough argument he's making. Seems cogent enough too. What he's getting at is that it's not a matter of principle for these people, only a matter of degree of their choosing. It's completely arbitrary, and therefore unfair and unworkable as public policy.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nope, his first post compared high rate taxpayers being asked to pay 75% tax to being asked to hand over everything over the 'world average' which is clearly a nonsense comparison.

His second post then attacks the people trying to enforce these laws by claiming that as socialists they should look to redress the balance between themselves and the more impoverished before they do anything else. An idealistic viewpoint and not a realistic one, in fact a typical argument of the greedy to be honest.

While I would agree that 75% seems excessive it is all just a matter of degrees. How much is too much, how much is too little... you will never get the same answer from any two people.

I do feel, however, that if you are lucky enough to earn huge money (and yes I know many work hard for it, but plenty of people work just as hard and earn very little) you should be prepared to put a bit more back in to society... that is what a true demcoracy is and inequality as some call it is present right the way through the system anyway. For instance a good proportion of my taxes go towards child education... I don't have any children so why should I pay for it?... because that is what a demcoratic society is about!

If we lived in a truly honest society then I expect most earners would not begrudge a bit more tax if they knew it was genuinely helping the country. The trouble is we don't and I can quite understand why people feel their taxes are being wasted on benefit cheats, reckless public spending, government nonsense etc. It also doesn't help when we see our elected representatives with their snouts in the trough over and over again!

Then there is the whole argument of tax evasion and avoidance. I am sorry but the likes of companies like Starbucks and individuals like Jimmy Carr are only using the system to their advantage. We should not be castigating them, but instead challenging the system that allows them to do this! The government are very good at deflectng the attention onto those benefiting and not calling into question their tax system that allows them to benefit!

scoobynutta555

I'd like to explore a flat tax rate across the board of 15-20%. When there a growing band paying nothing or around 1% on profit, something is quite wrong. Something seriously has to be done about the cosseted welfare culture that has morphed from a safety net of last resort to something akin to a lifestyle choice.

SJ_Skyline

I would like to see income tax replaced with some form of consumption tax. You are not taxed based on what you earn but on what you consume, in some ways akin to the taxation on fuel - if you drive a car which consumes more fuel you pay more. Likewise, if you consume more goods and services then you pay more, I guess VAT goes part of the way there.

The nail has been hit squarely on the head with comments that the welfare state that was once the last resort is now forming a career choice.

LVC

I've been living and working in France for over 11 years now and as an "independent" (Self-employed) I can confirm that there is absolutely no incentive to earn anything more than minimum wage over here. If you are unfortunate enough to work hard and try and improve your quality of life then you are taxed way above and beyond anything that resembles normal. Add to this the fact that the French accountancy system takes 2 years to play catch-up then you end up paying for what you earn't 2 years ago despite the fact that you may be earning nothing today.

I'm a long way off being rich but after 8 hard years I eventually worked out that the way to "win" over here is to earn "enough" for a good life but no-where near enough to get stung with the expensive taxes. So as a result I live well but work about 20% of what I used to in the UK - no point in earning more and having fallen into the trap of "employing" people over here I can safely say...never again - I work for myself, by myself and that way you get to have a good life.

There are very few "motivated" business people left in France due to the lazy **** attitude of the majority and unfair taxes imposed by the stupid state - unfortunately France is not alone there

But the wine is good, the weather is so much better than the UK, I have great friends and plenty of time to enjoy them, my family and my hobbies - just don't try and be a millionaire.

LeeMac

iTrader: (1)

LVC - where in france are you?

LVC

Half-way between Le Mans and Tours - the Loire Valley

c_maguire

I have a place in France and would like to move permanently at some point, but not to work because as a foreigner self-employment is the only easy option and as you say, the tax is atrocious (especially the way in which you even pay to the state when you have no work coming in).

Wherever you are and whatever you earn there really is no sense to a tax that means that any of your earnings are taxed at 50% or more. Losing half or more of those earnings to the state is a dis-incentive to work and it is generally the work of the wealthier that benefits the country with innovation, technology and of course the creation of more jobs.
I would prefer a flat-rate tax (after a tax-free amount of 15K) of say 25% for everyone which should be strictly enforced.