JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Quick one for the legal beagles or employment professionals...

My wife's company has a clause in their employment contract that states if you go off sick immediately before a pre-booked holiday then you forfeit your holiday pay and end up on unpaid leave. Is this legal - clearly some people abuse sick-notes to extend holidays but for those who are genuinely ill this is surely at best immoral?

dazzaturbo

Same at my work (except I get paid for sick).

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Only SSP at my wife's place so if you take a day, ie a Friday, you then forfeit that days pay and also the BH Monday if you fall ill on a BH weekend

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

That seems harsh! How about if you get a sick-note for the Friday?

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Doesn't make a difference apparently - if you go sick to holiday you forfeit your holiday pay, however, if you go holiday to sick that's fine

CrisPDuk

I can't see how that is legal, I suggest she takes it to citizens advice. It's amazing how many companies have employee terms & conditions that don't comply with the relevant legislation

Graz

Pretty sure that if we have a doctors note for a period of illness during a holiday then you can have your days back to take at another time. I think if anyone tried to claim back days for illness during a holiday then it would be taking the **** a bit. However say you broke your leg the day before you was due to go on a holiday, hopefully your insurance would cover the cancellation but you'd want the days back so you could book the holiday for later on in the year.

Regarding the OP, if you have a doctors note for sickness for any period I can't see that legally they could penalise you. A medical professional has deemed you unfit for work, end of story.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

I got chicken pox off one of my kids at the ripe old age of 41.........just before my 2 weeks Summer holiday. Damn near killed me and spent my holiday in bed.

Outcome was if I wanted to spend my holiday sick then that's not their fault so lost it

not had a day off sick since.

Shaun

fpan

iTrader: (11)

In Germany if you fall sick during a holiday you can claim the days of your holiday back.
UK has one of the most harsh rules but it could be due to the different cultures and people trying to exploit the system more here.
Then again that shouldn't give rights to your employer to skin you off.
I don't see the logic of unpaid leave if you fall sick before a holiday!
I wonder if it happens to the f€$€r who made this rule up what would happen?!

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

I'm guessing that's the rule of law when it's the big corporation vs the little man or woman - they run amock knowing you can't afford to challenge them

legb4rsk

I always thought the 'sick on holiday' rule was part of UK employment law & not down to individual companies.

Brun

At our place it's the same but if your signed off sick then you regain the leave days back!

Torquemada

Speak to Acas, they'll give you the bottom line on this.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

That's probably best and let us know the answer.

My work also has that policy, only they don't pay holiday pay if you are off afterwards either. However, that happened to me as I was admitted into hospital the day I was due to return to work and they did pay me.

hodgy0_2

I think being sick on (paid) holiday entitles you to (at least) SP

Torquemada

Thanks Lisa

Yeah, ex-trade union (I think I was the only non lentil eater there btw, lol) so I know CAB will give you varying levels of accuracy, usually crap, with regards UK employment law - We used to advise those who were not yet members, but tried to join with a problem (much like taking out insurance after having a crash) to go to Acas and they have helped me lots in the past as well.

More info here, but I'm sure you'll have seen this already, Jon.

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay/overview

in the link below, scroll down to the bit about holidays and sick leave pay:

https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

Cheers,

Tom

hodgy0_2

Here we go from the web site above

https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

Sick pay instead of holiday pay

"When an employee changes their holiday to sick leave they’re paid Statutory Sick Pay which will count towards the amount of holiday pay they’ve received. The exceptions to this rule are:

they don’t qualify for Statutory Sick Pay they were off work sick and being paid ‘occupational sick pay’"

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

I hadn't seen that Tom but it still begs the question, if they're off sick until the Friday and go on leave on the Monday why should they lose they're holiday pay (they don't work weekends) which is the current policy. If they want to retain their holiday pay they have to return to work for a day first. The way I read it is the company should still pay them holiday pay if they do not wish to covert thei holiday to sick leave

I'll suggest that they speak to ACAS and see what their view is - it may be above board but just doesn't seem right.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I can't for a second believe this is legal. Denying an employee the option to claim back their holiday because they were sick during the time-off, fair enough, it's just their bad luck. Denying an employee the option to claim sick-pay for days immediately before a paid-holiday period, again fair enough, you can certainly argue it looks suspicious (although probably still in flagrant breach of the law, if a valid sick-note is provided). Denying an employee their legally guaranteed holiday pay because they happen to be sick the day before they go off? These guys must think they're running a Victorian work-house

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

I work for a well known union and can tell you thats crap.
your entitled to paid holiday by law.
get your union man in and if youre not in one thats exactly why your being shafted as they know you wont challenge them.

Torquemada

Yep, they shouldn't lose holiday pay in that scenario, Tubbs is spot on with what he's said tbh and I don't think what your wifes work is doing is above board either but best to seek advice, just to be sure.

Being a union member would give some protection here but I know that most people don't tend to become union members and only think about it when it's too late (I had to be a member of another union when I worked at a union, to protect me from my underhand employers!)

Difficult one to take up with the bosses but employment law is employment law. Loads of employers are trying to fleece their staff during the 'tough economic times' because most are happy they actually have a job etc. and won't argue.

All the best for this and let us know how things turn out mate.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

What your wife should do is raise a collective grievance from all the employees.
that way nobody is singled out.
not paying you for holidays is illegal.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

I'll give her the advice and I'll speak 'off the record' to one of the union reps who works for me to get the local points of contact

Cheers for the pointers everyone and I'll let you know what they decide to do, if anything

cster

I think you will find that if you are sick during your holidays, you can claim the time of sick (ie SSP or whatever is in your contract) and take your holiday entitlement when you are no longer sick. This is fairly recent development/interpretation of employment law. (God bless the EU)
You will still accrue holiday entitlement while you are off sick - for example, if you get 4 weeks holiday per year and are only entitled to SSP, you could take 24 weeks off on SSP and then come back to work to take your two weeks holiday at full pay and then do the same thing again etc.
I would have to say that most of the well meaning posters on this thread clearly don't have a clue what they are talking about (which is not to say that they are not entitled to express an opinion on the matter).
A union rep should be more up to date with current employment law and would be a good first point of contact IMO.
Obviously the law of the land will take precedence over anything that is in any signed contract.
I speak as an employer of six people in a small business and do not consider myself in any way expert in such matters.

Jamz3k

The company I currently work for doesn't pay for sick days at all. When I was ill over December and January I had to use my holidays as I couldn't afford to lose the pay.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

The question is not about whether to claim holiday or sick pay whilst off, but the fact that they forfeit holiday pay if they are sick immediately prior to a holiday

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

And the answer is no its illegal.
you are entitled to paid holiday by law in the uk

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

And that is the advice I'm going to pass on for them to consider - and not to answer the other question of whether to take SSP or holiday pay

cster

I mentioned those points in order to give you an idea about the balance of law between employers and employees vis a vis employment law / holiday pay in the EU.
ie it is pretty much in favour of the employee. From this, you could probably figure out that the position of the employer in your first post is illegal.
Or not.

Dingdongler

How can that be the case? Are you a temp or agency worker?