Sick and Holiday Pay
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Quick one for the legal beagles or employment professionals...
My wife's company has a clause in their employment contract that states if you go off sick immediately before a pre-booked holiday then you forfeit your holiday pay and end up on unpaid leave. Is this legal - clearly some people abuse sick-notes to extend holidays but for those who are genuinely ill this is surely at best immoral?
My wife's company has a clause in their employment contract that states if you go off sick immediately before a pre-booked holiday then you forfeit your holiday pay and end up on unpaid leave. Is this legal - clearly some people abuse sick-notes to extend holidays but for those who are genuinely ill this is surely at best immoral?
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Only SSP at my wife's place so if you take a day, ie a Friday, you then forfeit that days pay and also the BH Monday if you fall ill on a BH weekend
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#6
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I can't see how that is legal, I suggest she takes it to citizens advice. It's amazing how many companies have employee terms & conditions that don't comply with the relevant legislation
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Pretty sure that if we have a doctors note for a period of illness during a holiday then you can have your days back to take at another time. I think if anyone tried to claim back days for illness during a holiday then it would be taking the **** a bit. However say you broke your leg the day before you was due to go on a holiday, hopefully your insurance would cover the cancellation but you'd want the days back so you could book the holiday for later on in the year.
Regarding the OP, if you have a doctors note for sickness for any period I can't see that legally they could penalise you. A medical professional has deemed you unfit for work, end of story.
Regarding the OP, if you have a doctors note for sickness for any period I can't see that legally they could penalise you. A medical professional has deemed you unfit for work, end of story.
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#8
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I got chicken pox off one of my kids at the ripe old age of 41.........just before my 2 weeks Summer holiday. Damn near killed me and spent my holiday in bed.
Outcome was if I wanted to spend my holiday sick then that's not their fault so lost it![Frown](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)
not had a day off sick since.
Shaun
Outcome was if I wanted to spend my holiday sick then that's not their fault so lost it
![Frown](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)
not had a day off sick since.
Shaun
#9
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In Germany if you fall sick during a holiday you can claim the days of your holiday back.
UK has one of the most harsh rules but it could be due to the different cultures and people trying to exploit the system more here.
Then again that shouldn't give rights to your employer to skin you off.
I don't see the logic of unpaid leave if you fall sick before a holiday!
I wonder if it happens to the f€$€r who made this rule up what would happen?!
UK has one of the most harsh rules but it could be due to the different cultures and people trying to exploit the system more here.
Then again that shouldn't give rights to your employer to skin you off.
I don't see the logic of unpaid leave if you fall sick before a holiday!
I wonder if it happens to the f€$€r who made this rule up what would happen?!
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I got chicken pox off one of my kids at the ripe old age of 41.........just before my 2 weeks Summer holiday. Damn near killed me and spent my holiday in bed.
Outcome was if I wanted to spend my holiday sick then that's not their fault so lost it![Frown](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)
not had a day off sick since.
Shaun
Outcome was if I wanted to spend my holiday sick then that's not their fault so lost it
![Frown](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)
not had a day off sick since.
Shaun
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Thanks Lisa ![Smile](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Yeah, ex-trade union (I think I was the only non lentil eater there btw, lol) so I know CAB will give you varying levels of accuracy, usually crap, with regards UK employment law - We used to advise those who were not yet members, but tried to join with a problem (much like taking out insurance after having a crash) to go to Acas and they have helped me lots in the past as well.
More info here, but I'm sure you'll have seen this already, Jon.
https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay/overview
in the link below, scroll down to the bit about holidays and sick leave pay:
https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
Cheers,
Tom
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Yeah, ex-trade union (I think I was the only non lentil eater there btw, lol) so I know CAB will give you varying levels of accuracy, usually crap, with regards UK employment law - We used to advise those who were not yet members, but tried to join with a problem (much like taking out insurance after having a crash) to go to Acas and they have helped me lots in the past as well.
More info here, but I'm sure you'll have seen this already, Jon.
https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay/overview
in the link below, scroll down to the bit about holidays and sick leave pay:
https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
Cheers,
Tom
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Here we go from the web site above
https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
Sick pay instead of holiday pay
"When an employee changes their holiday to sick leave they’re paid Statutory Sick Pay which will count towards the amount of holiday pay they’ve received. The exceptions to this rule are:
they don’t qualify for Statutory Sick Pay they were off work sick and being paid ‘occupational sick pay’"
https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
Sick pay instead of holiday pay
"When an employee changes their holiday to sick leave they’re paid Statutory Sick Pay which will count towards the amount of holiday pay they’ve received. The exceptions to this rule are:
they don’t qualify for Statutory Sick Pay they were off work sick and being paid ‘occupational sick pay’"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 30 July 2013 at 08:24 PM.
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I hadn't seen that Tom but it still begs the question, if they're off sick until the Friday and go on leave on the Monday why should they lose they're holiday pay (they don't work weekends) which is the current policy. If they want to retain their holiday pay they have to return to work for a day first. The way I read it is the company should still pay them holiday pay if they do not wish to covert thei holiday to sick leave![Ponder2](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/ponder2.gif)
I'll suggest that they speak to ACAS and see what their view is - it may be above board but just doesn't seem right.
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I'll suggest that they speak to ACAS and see what their view is - it may be above board but just doesn't seem right.
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I can't for a second believe this is legal. Denying an employee the option to claim back their holiday because they were sick during the time-off, fair enough, it's just their bad luck. Denying an employee the option to claim sick-pay for days immediately before a paid-holiday period, again fair enough, you can certainly argue it looks suspicious (although probably still in flagrant breach of the law, if a valid sick-note is provided). Denying an employee their legally guaranteed holiday pay because they happen to be sick the day before they go off? These guys must think they're running a Victorian work-house
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I hadn't seen that Tom but it still begs the question, if they're off sick until the Friday and go on leave on the Monday why should they lose they're holiday pay (they don't work weekends) which is the current policy. If they want to retain their holiday pay they have to return to work for a day first. The way I read it is the company should still pay them holiday pay if they do not wish to covert thei holiday to sick leave![Ponder2](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/ponder2.gif)
I'll suggest that they speak to ACAS and see what their view is - it may be above board but just doesn't seem right.
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I'll suggest that they speak to ACAS and see what their view is - it may be above board but just doesn't seem right.
Being a union member would give some protection here but I know that most people don't tend to become union members and only think about it when it's too late (I had to be a member of another union when I worked at a union, to protect me from my underhand employers!)
Difficult one to take up with the bosses but employment law is employment law. Loads of employers are trying to fleece their staff during the 'tough economic times' because most are happy they actually have a job etc. and won't argue.
All the best for this and let us know how things turn out mate.
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I'll give her the advice and I'll speak 'off the record' to one of the union reps who works for me to get the local points of contact![Thumb](https://www.scoobynet.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif)
Cheers for the pointers everyone and I'll let you know what they decide to do, if anything
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Cheers for the pointers everyone and I'll let you know what they decide to do, if anything
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I think you will find that if you are sick during your holidays, you can claim the time of sick (ie SSP or whatever is in your contract) and take your holiday entitlement when you are no longer sick. This is fairly recent development/interpretation of employment law. (God bless the EU)
You will still accrue holiday entitlement while you are off sick - for example, if you get 4 weeks holiday per year and are only entitled to SSP, you could take 24 weeks off on SSP and then come back to work to take your two weeks holiday at full pay and then do the same thing again etc.
I would have to say that most of the well meaning posters on this thread clearly don't have a clue what they are talking about (which is not to say that they are not entitled to express an opinion on the matter).
A union rep should be more up to date with current employment law and would be a good first point of contact IMO.
Obviously the law of the land will take precedence over anything that is in any signed contract.
I speak as an employer of six people in a small business and do not consider myself in any way expert in such matters.
You will still accrue holiday entitlement while you are off sick - for example, if you get 4 weeks holiday per year and are only entitled to SSP, you could take 24 weeks off on SSP and then come back to work to take your two weeks holiday at full pay and then do the same thing again etc.
I would have to say that most of the well meaning posters on this thread clearly don't have a clue what they are talking about (which is not to say that they are not entitled to express an opinion on the matter).
A union rep should be more up to date with current employment law and would be a good first point of contact IMO.
Obviously the law of the land will take precedence over anything that is in any signed contract.
I speak as an employer of six people in a small business and do not consider myself in any way expert in such matters.
Last edited by cster; 30 July 2013 at 09:52 PM.
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The company I currently work for doesn't pay for sick days at all. When I was ill over December and January I had to use my holidays as I couldn't afford to lose the pay.
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I think you will find that if you are sick during your holidays, you can claim the time of sick (ie SSP or whatever is in your contract) and take your holiday entitlement when you are not sick. This is fairly recent law.
You will still accrue holiday entitlement while you are off sick - for example, if you get 4 weeks holiday per year and are only entitled to SSP, you could take 24 weeks months off on SSP and then take two weeks holiday at full pay and then do the same thing again.
I would have to say that most of the well meaning posters on this thread clearly don't have a clue what they are talking about (which is not to say that they are not entitled to express an opinion on the matter).
A union rep should be more up to date with current employment law and would be a good first point of contact IMO.
Obviously the law of the land will take precedence over anything that is in any signed contract.
You will still accrue holiday entitlement while you are off sick - for example, if you get 4 weeks holiday per year and are only entitled to SSP, you could take 24 weeks months off on SSP and then take two weeks holiday at full pay and then do the same thing again.
I would have to say that most of the well meaning posters on this thread clearly don't have a clue what they are talking about (which is not to say that they are not entitled to express an opinion on the matter).
A union rep should be more up to date with current employment law and would be a good first point of contact IMO.
Obviously the law of the land will take precedence over anything that is in any signed contract.
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ie it is pretty much in favour of the employee. From this, you could probably figure out that the position of the employer in your first post is illegal.
Or not.
Last edited by cster; 31 July 2013 at 07:05 AM.
#30
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