BrettC

Hi everybody

This is going to be a bit of a vague post as I havnt contacted the company in question about this directly yet. I don't want to name names or give clues to who it could be as they havnt even had a chance to redeem themselves about this yet and they may sort out the problem without question.

I just wanted some points of view.

Right. Recently my Dad took his car (not subaru) to a performance tuner to get a few choice modifications to improve what was a nice yet not blistering performance car.

He effectively paid for a 70bhp increase in power with a similar increase in torque. I might add that they are one of, if not, the most expenisve tuners for the undisclosed make of car.

I had driven his car a lot as standard and then drove the car after the work had been done.

The car has definately been improved but as for an actual increase of 70 bhp I would very much doubt this. If I had to guess, maybe about 20 - 30 bhp.

The car will be dynoed in about 10 days time to prove (+/- a degree of error).
And as a result I may be prooved completely wrong, but the car definatly doent feel like it has had a massive ~50% power increase.

What my question effectively is:

Even though the car is more drivable if the increase of bhp is less than the 70 bhp as advertised have I got grounds to complain or not?

Thanks for any advice.

Reffro

If its a VW Diesel you are talking about they nearly always make more power than quoted as standard, so the gains are never as impressive as you may think........

OllyK

First check the small print to make sure you know exactly what the claim is, you may well find there are a load of caveats.

A dyno read out can vary quite a bit for the same car dpending on ambinet temperature and a whole host of other factors, do you have figures for before for comparison or just manufacturers?

Leslie

It is sometimes quite difficult to be able to say whether the engine performance has been increased as claimed just by driving the car. I would say that the dyno will be the only way to tell for sure, but did you know what power the engine was producing before the mods were done? You may need proof of that to be able to make a claim if the power is not as you think it should be.

If the claimed increase in engine performance is not there then I would say you do have a right to complain.

Les

BrettC

Thanks guys. This thread would be a whole lot easier if I would disclose companies involved and the car.

reffro: Its not a VW diesel but I take your point about the maybe having more than what the manufacturer claims as standard so the difference may not be so great after the work has been done.

I have had a few of these cars myself and when I have had them dynoed as standard they are pretty close to what the manufacturers claim.

OllyK/Leslie:
Unfortunately I have no dyno print out for the before modifications power run. It is my dad's car and he just took it for the work to be done. I completely appreciate all the variables of rolling road power figures, but the increase seems so low compared to their claims that despite discrepancies in rolling road figures I would be fine to allow maybe even 25 - 30% difference in what was actually gained and their theoretical increase, but it feels far less than that.

I have used the company before and usually the car is completly transformed from standard.

Like I said at the start I guess I/my dad should just contact them directly.

I just wanted some opinions as my old man was expecting a big increase (like the company are advertising) and I think that he is a bit dissapointed at the benefits gained from what he had to pay out. Im a bit gutted for him.

OllyK

If you have no before figures I'd question if it is worth paying out for a dyno.

First off I'd just get in touch, say you have had this work done and you are a bit dissapointed. Would they mind giving it the once over and make sure they are happy with it. It is possible all the bits are there but they goofed something on the tuning that just needs a quick tweak. If they are half decent you will probably find they are more than willing to have a look to ensure you are happy and to maintain their reputation.

+Doc+

I think this can only be sorted out between yourself and the company involved, if they are as prestigious as you say then they will do their upmost to keep you happy and keep their name clean.
Legally imo you dont have a leg to stand on.

BrettC

Yep, fair point.
Will still get it dynoed just for own interest but wont use figures produced with the company as we have no control data.
They are a very well known company for this marque and hopefully they will sort out any problems.

You never know...the dyno run might be fine in which case it was me that was the weakest link....goodbye..

Cheers

Brett

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Call up some of the rolling road companies, and see if they have run similar cars.

For example Power Engineering in Uxbridge have run a variety of cars, and can be proved accurate such with a variety of standard cars making standard figures, including Renaults, Fords, Audis, etc.

No harm in asking, they are friendly and should be able to help you out.

BrettC

Thanks Andy

warrenm2

also how do you know that the mods havent now highlighted a previous minor fault? say for example the fuel pump was weak, now it needs more fuel, it can't deliver it... (I know there are ways this would show up - just trying to give an example)

BrettC

Yep, another fair point also.
The car in question was a VERY well maintained example with only 60,000 miles.
Before the car went for its engine mods it was fully serviced and inspected (knowing what was in store for the car I had it completely checked out)
I had also had a number of these cars too and it drove like all the others. Yes, they could have all had an underlying weakness but that would be unusual.

Also 'they' drove the car after they had completed the work and said that all was great. But I guess i was just dissapointed with results after my last one came back which was and felt very rapid.

But yes, fair point.

Suresh

I assume it is a turbo engine given the big BHP increase from the work. If not ignore what follows.
Surely a boost pressure gauge would give a good indication if it has been fettled per contract? For example I had a safe tek3 done on my MY99 classic which took it from 0.9 to 1.15 bar held, which was theoretically about 30bhp more than standard and certainly felt like a little more.

HTH

Suresh

BrettC

Good idea mate. Will plumb a boost gauge in to check.
It will at least give an indication as boost pressure alone isnt the be all and end all of a cars performance.
Cheers
Brett

BrettC

Something that I also should have mentioned was all of the items that were paid for have been installed to get the 70 bhp and a nice and tidy job has been done, my query was just their claims in bhp increase.

wacky.banana

BrettC,

While not commenting on your specific situation as all the facts are not in the public domain to allow an informed view to be made, in general terms I fear you have hit a real issue here, ie being in a position (or not) to prove that you got what you paid for. There was a series of long running threads on here sometime last year about tuners not being able to scientifically prove their power gains after working on a car in order for the customer to be wholly satisfied that they had got what they paid for.

I am still of the opinion that, taking all variables into account, if you are just about to spend say £20k to a tuner on the understanding that you will be getting, say a 250/250 increase in power/torque as advertised by them (real figures, not percentages, and I'm thinking of a very real example here), then the least I would expect is for that tuner to validate beyond all doubt that you have been given what you paid for. If they cannot validate/verify the position then legal redress within the framework of enhanced consumer law should be open to the customer if they require it.

I cannot think of any other consumer area where you can purchase goods/services in good faith and as advertised without having legal redress if you have been stitched up. If you don't get exactly what it says on the tin then surely this cannot be regarded as anything else but fraud, at the very least, or taking money under false pretences? In my view the sooner this area of power upgrades for motor vehicles is tightened up under the law the better.

I have probably opened a can of worms here and, no doubt, the validity of my parentage may well be questioned by some with an association or vested interest in this area . However this issue of power upgrades and getting exactly what you paid for is something I feel very very strongly about, given that we all work pretty damned hard for our money (I know I do).

Hope it all gets sorted to your satisfaction.

OllyK

But are people claiming "guarenteed X BHP increases" or is it caveated in the small print as "up to X Bhp increase depending on circumstances".

Many claims are "like" this, energy savings for new boilers, double glazing, insulation etc all say you "may" save up to 35% on your heating bill (assuming you have the crappest possible set up imaginable at the moment). This is why I initially asked what the exact wording of the advert was.

BrettC

Wacky.banana

I agree with you completly about getting something that you have paid for, hence the post. Like I said I have deliberately been very vague about the specific details on this case because I am (at the moment) basing everything on the highly scientific parameter of 'how the car feels to drive'

Also if there is an actual problem with the car then the tuning company have a great reputation and I'm sure they will rectify it without any hassle so no legalities of anything need be even mentioned at the mo.
Bu like you I am very cynical about claims and am fed up of rip off britain...that is if this is even the case here.

OllyK
Completely agree with you about the small print too. I don't have the paper work as my dad will have this.
However basing their claims on product adverts on their website...they describe the item with price and then clearly state an actual figure of bhp increase (not up to..but an actual stated figure). If this remains the case and it isnt a matter of a statement in the small print of the type that you provide as an example then W.B comment of getting what you pay for should be very valid.

Thanks all for replies.

PS I am not in anyway trying to get a refund or anything like that all I am asking for is that my dad gets what he has paid for. Nothing more nothing less.

And like i said this is all based simply on me driving the car before and after nothing other than that, so it may transpire that all is completely fine and I am at fault at not being able to notice a 50% increase in bhp and torque on a marque of cars that I know a fair bit about.

Cheers

+Doc+

Im sure the company is selling the "package" as an achievable xxxbhp, no company out there would guarantee a bhp as there are too many variables to take into consideration.

EddScott

Isn't it hard to accurately verify what the true BHP of a car is? Yes you have rolling roads etc but can't these things be manipulated to show what you want them to show?

Had my car mapped at one place and it came out at 269. Went to an RR day somewhere else and got 243- eh!!!??? WTF! No amount of searching the glove box found the missing 26BHP.

BrettC

DOC: do you think this is the case even if they don't state it anywhere? If on their website they had stated 'up to' xxx bhp etc i wouldnt have even started this post but they dont...its product then bhp increase. My dad asked in person what bhp it has got now and they replied a figure which was exactly the sum of all power increases stated for each individual component.

EddScott: I quite agree about the variation in rolling roads. But what I am questioning isnt 5 or 6 bhp or even 20 but more like a missing 45 or 50? Maybe its in the shed under the old orange indicators!

brickboy

Is it just ECU code that the tuner did, or a remap / induction / exhaust work etc?

As the old saying goes, if you have to measure the difference to see how big it is, then you haven't really made a difference at all .... if the car doesn't feel like other similar cars that have had the same treatment, get it checked!

Any reputable company should take a reasonably-put complaint seriously, and should have the chance to put it right.

wacky.banana

EddScott & Doc,

Taking the engine out and testing it on a dyno under lab conditions might be a good start. We let tuners off far too easily by going along with the received wisdom that its somehow too difficult to get accurate/consistent figures. In this, the 21st century, I expect the technology and methods to be available to prove that I got what I paid for else don't trade in bhp.

If I was paying £20K for a tuning upgrade I would be more than pissed off to find I did not quite get what was advertised/agreed because a tuner was telling me that my missing 150bhp was down to their inability to measure accurately.

Imagine this conversation with your house builder - "I didn't put in all the concrete foundations that I said I would because some of the concrete has gone missiing somewhere but I don't know where and its too difficult to measure because we have built the house now. Oh, by the way, you still owe me the full funding we agreed up front...."

I would be taking a legal axe to that man, no questions asked.

WB

MattN

Stupid question this. Why have you not yet taken it up with the tuners, all this speculation is pointless if they just say OK, let's sort it!

BrettC

MattN

Because its my dads car and he is on holiday with the car.

I have also said from the very first post that I am pretty sure that they WILL sort it out hence not providing any company or car details. I just wanted to get an idea of peoples opinion on companies selling the items on a bhp basis thing rather than buying just the components. Which I have also said are there in place and they have done a good job fitting them so no complaints there at all. My query was with their stated BHP claims. Read Wacky.bananas post it was well explained.

I have also said it could be me that is the problem and the car is fine. In which case there is not a problem at all.

Brickboy.

ECU, induction, exhaust, Intercoolers, fuel pressure regs...the works.

And they completely will have the chance to put it right....thats is anything is even wrong. Please see first paragraph first post.

Nick Read

So how did this go? My first impression is that you're far too trusting. Call me cynical but I always EXPECT companies to try and either do less work than they're paid for, or do it badly when they claim some kind of expertise. That way I'm never disappointed - I expect people to try and rip me off and I'm ready for it. The best thing is when you DO find a company that is totally honest and upfront; they don't try and bull**** you, they value the fact that you have chosen them and not their rivals, and don't automatically assume that you know nothing and they know everything about what they're being paid to do. When you find a firm like that, stick with them.

MikeCardiff

iTrader: (2)

I think the only way you can definitely prove it is to get the car dyno'd by someone independent before the work is done, then again after it is done by the same person and compare the figures.

As you dont have anything to prove what the car was running before they tuned it, they are going to be able to claim pretty much anything - they could easily say, 'for some reason it was 20hp down on the factory quoted figure, dont know why, but its now running 'x' amount which is the increase we promised you' and there isnt much you can prove otherwise.

Personally, I dont think any company can 100% guarantee a specific power gain for a set price ( unless they are really hedging their bets on an easily tuned car, e.g. 100bhp extra on a Skyline ! ) - there are too many variables to take into account, age of the car, state of the engine, existing work done etc...

Saying this, if the people you are dealing with are well respected then the likelihood is they have either made a genuine mistake or there is some problem with the car that means the figure they quoted wasnt achievable through their standard work.

Speak to them is the only option though, get them to Dyno it and see what its making now, and see if this roughly ties in with what you'd expect compared to the standard factory figures. If it doesnt, ask them why, then ask them to have another look at the car and check that they have done everything correctly and there isnt something else wrong with the car that is stopping the full power coming out.

matchmaker

I had my Octavia vRS remapped by Star Performance. They advertise (with the remap I got) "between 210 and 215 bhp". They also put the car on the RR before. Results? Exactly what it said on the tin. 216 bhp, up from 188 bhp (usual VAG - more than advertised!). No wild claims, just a nice, rapid enough (for me!) car which looks bog standard