jeremy

I'm confused as heck. Everyone keeps writing of the unbridled joys of the Cayman. Basically its always "excepting for the need for more power, the handling is a good as anything ever" or some such thing.

The question: Its claimed by Autocar and Evo that this car can do no wrong-handling wise, and that it has gobs of traction, grip, poise etc. Does this mean front-engine, progresive on-limit handling, and 4 wheel are now unessary for fast road driving? That a perfectly sorted mid engine rear wheel drive car can keep pace with the likes of Imprezas and evo's?

Someone please do a through comparsion of these two. I perseonally can't believe the Cayman good as it is, can be as sure footed as a well sorted Impreza. JL

The Chief

To be honest (and yes i'm an IMpreza owner here) it probably is in the dry - not sure what size the tyres are but i bet they're huge. my buddies boxter i would say grips better on a smooth dry road but.... when then conditions and roads turn a bit sh*tty then teh Impreza comes into its own - especially something like a modified Spec C, i suspect that the Subaru will be easier to push to its limits than a Cayman.

I've not driven a Cayman (or probably will) so really cant be 100%

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Even the Boxster S was faster than an Sti around the Evo handling track a couple of years ago...

..however remember that a 996 GT3 was only four seconds faster around the 'Ring than a production Spec C RA. And the GT3 is way faster than a Cayman.

So see what times the Cayman does at the 'Ring to answer your real world road question. My view is that it is probably ten-fifteen seconds slower than a Spec C.

The more important question to me is what difference is there in the hands of the common man. The Spec C is FAR easier to drive very fast than either a 911 or a Boxster/Cayman, all IMHO of course. You need more talent to the drive the Porches fast - and ultimately they are probably all the more rewarding for it.

My 911 was brilliant - a much more sophisticated and better car than the Scoob. However I sold it to buy a Spec C which is massively faster in my hands than the 911 ever was.

Finally in answer to your comment - front engine and 4-wheel drive were never regarded by anyone as necessary for fast road driving or being the pinnacle of handling - however they may offer very high grip when the going gets slippy.

For ultimate tarmac work look at ALL the great supercars - they are ALL mid-engined - F1, F430, Enzo, Zonda, Gallardo, Murcielargo, Carrera GT, says it all really.

Castrol

And now?

Impreza STi = 1.26.10

Boxster S = 1.28.55

Evo July 2006

Brendan Hughes

Pulling rabbits out of a hat, I'd guess that one grips, the other rewards.

KiwiGTI

But that is the standard MY06 STI, the one that everyone slags off as being worse than all previous ones.

scrappydog

Unfortunately, I've not been lucky enough to go round the 'ring. But I wouldn't have thought it would be that similar to a UK B-road, would it? I mean, you've got to half the width of it at least since the traffic is only one way on the 'ring.

Just a thought.

Andy

jeremy

Rannoch,
"Finally in answer to your comment - front engine and 4-wheel drive were never regarded by anyone as necessary for fast road driving or being the pinnacle of handling - however they may offer very high grip when the going gets slippy."

Well actually that was my whole point really. The road testers these days tell us that actaully on wet demanding roads that cars like the Cayman, the 911, nobles, small Lambo's, NSX's etc are all equallt competent as cars like Impreza's. And that just doesn't make any sense to me. It would seem that all those mid/rear engine cars would simple require *more road-more road than often there is, than an Impreza to sort out if grip is lost???? I really would like to see a bunch of competent drivers compare such a group with an eye on safety with speed? thanks, JL

john banks

I remember reading an Evo review that said the E46 M3 was as secure as the RS4, Tuscan and Skyline in the wet. The others must be totally crap in the wet that is all I can say after how my M3 was in the wet - atrocious sums it up. Tuscan you expect that or worse, not the Skyline and RS4...

Trout

iTrader: (1)

The evo figures are interesting - I missed the reappearence of the STi - more interesting as the commentary suggested it was slower than previous models where the Boxster S was a faster car. And the Boxster is indeed faster than the Cayman.

My only experience is directly comparing a GT3 with a Scoob. The GT3 is phenomenally fast and uses no more road than the Scoob IF and the big IF you know how to drive well. The Scoob is more accessible for more drivers.

However Scoobs have limits too - how many numpties have booted a Scoob in the wet twisties and gone straight on at the first sign of a slippy corner. Or lost it on the way out of the corner as they lifted after missing the apex and gone into lift off oversteer.

Scoobs are not immune and other modern cars have brilliant chassis with excellent (often tailor made) tyre technology.

Rannoch

Tobisausage

FletchCSL

The scoob simply makes its performance more accessable to the average driver than a cayman, but put a decent driver such as a professional road tester behind the wheel and i presume they will be equally quick in both cars.

This argument could go on forever, theres so many variables. As above look at the boxster vs STi times, yet remember years back when the P1 came out it was tested against 15 (i think) other cars in EVO but on a tight wet track a standard boxster set the benchmark with the fastest lap. Every situation suits one cars strengths more then the others.

Best driver rules supreme

john banks

Probably some of the STi's time comes from its tyres which don't work as well in the wet? So the Boxster (probably on Michelin Pilot Sports at a guess?) might not lose out at all relatively in the wet?

CharlesW

I currently own a JDM Impreza MY96 which is decatted and has uprated suspension. So it is quite quick and well sorted in the handling department. I also have the use of my wife's Integra DC5 from time to time, which in my opinion is a better handling car.

On the road there's not much in it. The Impreza is perhaps easier to drive. It's certainly easier to overtake at normal traffic speeds. I have tracked both of them at Knockhill. The DC5 is much quicker than the Impreza, as it carries more speed through the corners and has better brakes. On a wet track the extra speed in the corners is even more noticeable.

Now I have put in an order for a Cayman S, which I have driven for a whole day on various roads in N E Scotland. It is a much better handling car than the Impreza and the Honda. It can carry incredible amounts of speed through corners. It is quicker in a straight line than the Impreza or the Honda - 12.0 seconds to 100 mph. So all in all a quick car. Just as with the Honda the good handling and cornering speed are just as relevant in the wet as the dry.
I drove it in very wet conditions after some heavy showers, and it seemed pretty secure to me.

Some lap times from Top Gear put its performance into perspective.

http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonb...times/thestig/

Castrol

Bearing in mind the cost of an Impreza STi vs some of the other cars in there, the times rather put the Scoob into perspective too. I'd expect the Cayman/Boxster S to be faster - and the 911 S too (although it is by only fractions of a second...). Of course, the 911 Turbo, DB7 GT, M3, Esprit V8, NSX Type R should murder it - but don't...

When you have cars with so called sporting pretensions, costing 2-3 times the price of an STi, they all should be faster! But they're not...

Leeroy

I can't really weigh this up either A better car than bug/blob Sti's IMHO.

Dracoro

Different markets, different benchmarks etc. After all, a scoob is twice as much as a hot clio but not much in them in the whole scheme of things. But figures and 'who would win' aren't what it's all about. Too many people about are too precious about these things. Put it this way, my little car will pi$$ all over 98% of cars on the road (most scoobs included!) but I can fully appreciate that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Give me someone who says "I can't see why someone would buy one" about any half decent nice car and I'll show you someone who clearly isn't a motoring enthusiast, just a naive pretender. As I say, different people have different yardsticks. One mans great car is anothers nightmare.

Castrol

Well there you go then! Another put into perspective! Even if the Clio Trophy is almost 8 seconds a lap slower than the STi...

chiark

But the perspective here is/was B roads...

They're all great cars. One will probably be faster, one will probably be more fun. If there was a perfect car, we'd all have one - it'll always be a compromise based on the things that are important to you.

craigdmcd

iTrader: (2)

Surely the question that has to be asked from the original question is "what type of "b" road" are you refering to? A: the nice style with lovely sweeping curves that are normally single carriageway with a good surface or B: the single track, broken surface, pot-holed style with loads of camber changes and severe mid corner tightening, that are my favourites in the West of Scotland. Answer A: the Cayman every day (probably even the wet) and B: the Impreza of course, getting chased or chasing an Evo

Castrol

Agreed, but hasn't the Impreza always been praised for its ability as a road and not a track car? If it's done this well in such vaunted company on a track, then how much better will it be on the road?

RB5_245

A track is not a real world test of performance, the germans will always win as that's how there suspension is set up. For smooth fast tracks, add in a few potholes a puddle or 2 some bad camber and blind direction changes a diesel, spill 3 or 4 yumps. cat's eyes, painted lines, an 8ft mud line in the braking area....

Then the more complient cars really step up to the plate, Impreza, evo, clio...

chiark

RB5, fully agree, that's the point I was trying to make. 8 seconds on a track won't equate to much on a road - the article where evo put a 180bhp clio trophy against a 500+bhp M6 on real roads is an enlightening read . Of course, they didn't put a scoob in the mix so no doubt the scoob would have shown them who's boss in the twisties

Diablo

Does it really matter?

I know which one I'd rather have sitting in my driveway

RB5_245

Yeah me too, porsche just doesn't do it for me.