BMW, Ultimate driving machine?
03 February 2009, 05:34 PM
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BMW, Ultimate driving machine?
Why do they say that BMW's are the ultimate driving machine 
All i've seen for the last 2 days are loads of them struggling to get traction on the snow and ice. My neighbour had to leave his M3 at the bottom of the road as it refused to get up the small hill we live on, my mums £300 306 turbo diesel went straight up the hill much to my neighbours disgust
All i've seen for the last 2 days are loads of them struggling to get traction on the snow and ice. My neighbour had to leave his M3 at the bottom of the road as it refused to get up the small hill we live on, my mums £300 306 turbo diesel went straight up the hill much to my neighbours disgust
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03 February 2009, 06:29 PM
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Remember when Birmhingham had that big freeze in 03 or 04? The whole city centre froze in 20 min and buses were sliding all over the place, it took 6 hours to drive half a mile etc... I was in the middle of that in a 964 C2. I avoided all trouble and used the 911's unique ability to swap ends in a short space to do a 180 and drive back the other way on the oppo carriageway while everyone else was stuck.
Another time i had an E36 M3 and drove from London back home in a snow storm at 2am with no problem. Ditto the same in a Boxster S. And again in an old 450SL.
Like i said, it's not hard if you are a smooth, cautious, prepared driver. Unfortunately most people are not .
03 February 2009, 06:51 PM
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My BM is garbage in the snow. No matter how I drive it it's got rubbish traction & does not stop. The run flats are not good at the best of times which does not help.
Wife's Octavia VRs is much better and perfectly drivable.
I know everyone is quick to point out it's the BMW driver that's at fault etc etc but it's the only car I have ever struggled with in bad weather
- utter crap!
Wife's Octavia VRs is much better and perfectly drivable.
I know everyone is quick to point out it's the BMW driver that's at fault etc etc but it's the only car I have ever struggled with in bad weather
- utter crap!
03 February 2009, 06:54 PM
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My BM is garbage in the snow. No matter how I drive it it's got rubbish traction & does not stop. The run flats are not good at the best of times which does not help.
Wife's Octavia VRs is much better and perfectly drivable.
I know everyone is quick to point out it's the BMW driver that's at fault etc etc but it's the only car I have ever struggled with in bad weather
- utter crap!
Wife's Octavia VRs is much better and perfectly drivable.
I know everyone is quick to point out it's the BMW driver that's at fault etc etc but it's the only car I have ever struggled with in bad weather
- utter crap!
03 February 2009, 07:04 PM
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Wide tyres spread load out over a bigger area, excerting less downward pressure. Of course any sporty car will suffer in the Snow and Ice (and be more susceptible to aquaplanning in the rain)
Strange then how a 306 diesel on narrow tyres works well.
Strange then how a 306 diesel on narrow tyres works well.
03 February 2009, 07:17 PM
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First time i ever drove on snow was in an F348. No problems at all, driving to work at 6am through the countryside
Remember when Birmhingham had that big freeze in 03 or 04? The whole city centre froze in 20 min and buses were sliding all over the place, it took 6 hours to drive half a mile etc... I was in the middle of that in a 964 C2. I avoided all trouble and used the 911's unique ability to swap ends in a short space to do a 180 and drive back the other way on the oppo carriageway while everyone else was stuck.
Another time i had an E36 M3 and drove from London back home in a snow storm at 2am with no problem. Ditto the same in a Boxster S. And again in an old 450SL.
Like i said, it's not hard if you are a smooth, cautious, prepared driver. Unfortunately most people are not .
Remember when Birmhingham had that big freeze in 03 or 04? The whole city centre froze in 20 min and buses were sliding all over the place, it took 6 hours to drive half a mile etc... I was in the middle of that in a 964 C2. I avoided all trouble and used the 911's unique ability to swap ends in a short space to do a 180 and drive back the other way on the oppo carriageway while everyone else was stuck.
Another time i had an E36 M3 and drove from London back home in a snow storm at 2am with no problem. Ditto the same in a Boxster S. And again in an old 450SL.
Like i said, it's not hard if you are a smooth, cautious, prepared driver. Unfortunately most people are not .
I once drove Edinburgh to Aberdeen and about 30 miles short of my destination I ran into snow. It had been on and off for a few days and a layer of compacted/icy snow had formed on the road surface and there was now a fresh dusting of around 1-2 inches on top of it. I was in the S2000 (low torque compared to m3/911, RWD, no driver aids) and it was an absolute nightmare! Any movement on the throttle at all - and I do mean any - in any gear (inc 6th at 30mph) would spin up the rear wheels. IIRC, I basically let her idle along in 4th gear with no throttle applied as just the motion of the suspension was enough to move your foot. The front end was even worse; despite very well planned and slowly executed adjustments the front of the car was sliding about all over the place and basically following the fall and/or imperfections in the road. I'd be driving along very slowly with no throttle applied in a perfectly straight line and the car would just carry off to the left or right towards the snow embankments. Steering input had no effect so for 30 miles of my journey the only time I used throttle was to give it tiny stabs to provoke a small slide and allow me to steer the car from the rear. I spent an hour making loads and loads of tiny little adjustments and was pretty much constantly in some sort of four wheel drift as no matter what you did or didn't do the car would not track anything like the intended or desired line. I made it without hitting anything or switching ends but on a few hills I very nearly lost all momentum and if I'd stopped she'd never have found the grip to get going again. I was physically and mentally exhausted and my arms ached from having to constantly try to alter my steering inputs and from gripping the wheel so tight when I finally got her straight to prevent any unintended input. Conditions like that are damn near un-drivable in a RWD car and would be trouble enough for something 4WD with skinny tyres such as a defender!
You sure you are not thinking about a layer of slushy snow on an otherwise non-frozen tarmac surface?
03 February 2009, 07:24 PM
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I expect that on all the occasions i mentioned above (apart from in B'ham) the fact that i was on my own early in the morning helped a lot. I could keep a steady speed without having to stop and bog down. It was damn cold though and at or below freezing, a couple of times in blizzard conditions. I wasn't driving though 2 feet high banks though by any means.
I found the S2000 to be twitchy (but only drove it in dry/cold/wet not snow/ice). The cars i mentioned above are all a lot more solid/smooth to drive i think. 911's are actually very controllable in the wet/ice, they give you a lot of warning what they are doing and you always feel in control. I find them totally predictable and one of the most pleasing cars to drive in poor conditions.
The B'ham incident made national news it was some of the worst/most icy driving conditons experienced in the UK for the last 50 years!
Oh, i think that the fact that none of the cars belonged to me, i was new to driving all of them compared to a regular car and all had about £1500-2000 insurance on them made me a lot more concentrated/careful too
A lot of people get to know their cars and get sloppy/careless maybe?
I found the S2000 to be twitchy (but only drove it in dry/cold/wet not snow/ice). The cars i mentioned above are all a lot more solid/smooth to drive i think. 911's are actually very controllable in the wet/ice, they give you a lot of warning what they are doing and you always feel in control. I find them totally predictable and one of the most pleasing cars to drive in poor conditions.
The B'ham incident made national news it was some of the worst/most icy driving conditons experienced in the UK for the last 50 years!
Oh, i think that the fact that none of the cars belonged to me, i was new to driving all of them compared to a regular car and all had about £1500-2000 insurance on them made me a lot more concentrated/careful too
A lot of people get to know their cars and get sloppy/careless maybe?
Last edited by Nat; 03 February 2009 at 07:29 PM.
03 February 2009, 07:32 PM
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I had the same problem yesterday Kenny. Less power at about 170bhp, but little weight in a lightened car and 245 section tyres... Even small bumps in the road prompted 30º sideways action. Even in an unsuitable car, with wholly unsuitable tyres though; I still managed to drive past the rafts of BMWs that seemed to be blocking Sheffield's roads yeaterday afternoon..... That says more about the drivers than the cars, I think.
03 February 2009, 07:34 PM
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911s are great in the snow, so good infact they make quite a nice holiday out of driving them in the snow
http://www.porschecentrumeindhoven.n...amp4_intro.jpg
They do 3 or 4 courses, culminating in their masters course with some fairly well known racing drivers running the show - you have to do them in order though - so cost is not cheap to get to the top level but just imagine the fun you would have along the way.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2dFo0HCqFog
http://www.porschecentrumeindhoven.n...amp4_intro.jpg
They do 3 or 4 courses, culminating in their masters course with some fairly well known racing drivers running the show - you have to do them in order though - so cost is not cheap to get to the top level but just imagine the fun you would have along the way.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2dFo0HCqFog
03 February 2009, 07:38 PM
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When i had the 964 in the snow i left Daventry at 2pm, up the M1, M6, pulled into the M6 services before B'ham, totally clear dry roads. I'd been up since 5am so pakred, dropped the seat and went to sleep for a bit. Woke up at 4pm ish surrounded by a blanket of white 
Immediately did some donuts and slides around the services car park until the police told me to **** off then drove into B'ham just in time to get caught in the mother of all traffic jams when the temp dropped to -6-8 in a few mins and all the snow froze making the streets like sheet ice 
Thinking back, the 911 in the snow was definitely the easiest, safest feeling and most rewarding car i've driven in such conditons
Immediately did some donuts and slides around the services car park until the police told me to **** off then drove into B'ham just in time to get caught in the mother of all traffic jams when the temp dropped to -6-8 in a few mins and all the snow froze making the streets like sheet ice Thinking back, the 911 in the snow was definitely the easiest, safest feeling and most rewarding car i've driven in such conditons
Last edited by Nat; 03 February 2009 at 07:41 PM.
03 February 2009, 11:36 PM
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In fairness, I suppose a 911 or Ferrari would probably be more manageable than an FR platform as with the engine further towards the rear of the car there is more weight over the driven axle. As I said in my long post though, my issues couldn't have been solved with two slabs in the back. The conditions were simply so bad that no corner of the car was even close to finding any purchase into the surface I was driving on. I must admit, I'd love to try a car with proper snow/winter tyres on to see what difference it makes. A back to back comparison would be ideal.
04 February 2009, 12:07 AM
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My favourite car in the snow was my Alfa Romeo Guiletta 2.0. Gearbox over the rear axle so 50:50 weight distribution. I lived in Scotland at the time and went to either Glencoe or Glenshee each weekend in the winter to ski. I have driven literally hundreds of miles on snow or icy/slushy roads and only ever had one problem. I once left the lights on when I went up the mountain in Glencoe.
My 993 was good in the snow - back end was easily less provoked than my E39 Touring with ESP/DSC on!!
My 330Ci did not do so well in the snow. Massively wide rear tyres and the DSC kept kicking in killing the power so it got stuck very easily even on small inclines on fresh snow.
STi V was great, Spec C was great too.
My 993 was good in the snow - back end was easily less provoked than my E39 Touring with ESP/DSC on!!
My 330Ci did not do so well in the snow. Massively wide rear tyres and the DSC kept kicking in killing the power so it got stuck very easily even on small inclines on fresh snow.
STi V was great, Spec C was great too.
04 February 2009, 12:42 AM
#28
I've been chugging the e39 round with no problems, just need to treat the throttle like an eggshell. Biggest problem with modern BMs is the fly-by-wire throttle - its too sensitive.
The old cable jobbies on the M52 engines were far more "real" in terms of pedal vs. throttle plate relationship; essential for pulling away ultra smoothly without causing a wheel to break free and spin up.
Automatic BMs pull away from standstill better in ice/snow with the handbrake on a few notches, as quite often the drive from the engine at idle puts too much power through the wheels. So the wheels are spinning as soon as you start letting off the foot brake (especially with a cold engine thats idling a little faster than normal). Remember to take the handbrake off again after the car gets moving though
I'm guessing SMG would be useless in the snow/ice; as soon as it tries to engage the clutch, it'll do it too quickly and cause the wheels to break traction straight away. Handbrake trick might work on those as well as it would dampen the clutch engagement.
The old cable jobbies on the M52 engines were far more "real" in terms of pedal vs. throttle plate relationship; essential for pulling away ultra smoothly without causing a wheel to break free and spin up.
Automatic BMs pull away from standstill better in ice/snow with the handbrake on a few notches, as quite often the drive from the engine at idle puts too much power through the wheels. So the wheels are spinning as soon as you start letting off the foot brake (especially with a cold engine thats idling a little faster than normal). Remember to take the handbrake off again after the car gets moving though
I'm guessing SMG would be useless in the snow/ice; as soon as it tries to engage the clutch, it'll do it too quickly and cause the wheels to break traction straight away. Handbrake trick might work on those as well as it would dampen the clutch engagement.
Last edited by ALi-B; 04 February 2009 at 12:45 AM.
04 February 2009, 08:31 AM
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FWD is generally ok, but it's got to be 4wd for these conditions.
04 February 2009, 08:54 AM
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I think it depends where you live- I live near to Haworth in west yorkshire: you've gotta be kidding to say vehicles can manage it in the snow.
I watched car after car on monday night get abandoned- including all the mincers in their BMW's. most of which did nothing but wheelspin for literally anything to 10-20 mins- blocking the roads and causing problems for people who could actually make it on the hills round here.
i.e farmers trying to deliver bails of hay etc
at least we had a few laughs watching them smash their alloys into kerbs as they went sideways and then abandon their cars.
all this tech talk is absolutely bollocks: anything rear wheel drive with big fat tyres just failed instantly. come to think of it, a lot of front wheel drive did too- esp all the chavs in corsas/clios with halfrauds big fat alloys on.
I watched car after car on monday night get abandoned- including all the mincers in their BMW's. most of which did nothing but wheelspin for literally anything to 10-20 mins- blocking the roads and causing problems for people who could actually make it on the hills round here.
i.e farmers trying to deliver bails of hay etc
at least we had a few laughs watching them smash their alloys into kerbs as they went sideways and then abandon their cars.
all this tech talk is absolutely bollocks: anything rear wheel drive with big fat tyres just failed instantly. come to think of it, a lot of front wheel drive did too- esp all the chavs in corsas/clios with halfrauds big fat alloys on.