Dingdongler

Spent a few hours down the dealers today. What I really wanted to drive was the 535d M sport but they don't have that yet. So I drove a 523 Msport and a 730d Msport.

1) The 5 series. I'm not sure what the criticisms are about the way this car handles. It handled like a dream. For a mid sized saloon that is not a sports car it does very very well. Very responsive to steering inputs, fairly flat in the corners but still a very supple ride.
At the limit it's not going to handle like my M5, but for daily driving it would be much more comfortable but still interesting to drive.
Engine, not bad for only 200 BHP. But under powered for me.

The interior by the way is very nice, much nicer than the E60

2) The 730d. This is the first time I've driven a BMW diesel btw (apart from a very early 520d).
Well no surprises that it doesn't handle as well as the 5 series. Within a few miles I realised that though I might be ready to move from the M5 to something more sensible the 7 series is just one step too far. Saying that for a very big car it still does very well.

Now this is the interesting part. As I said it's the first time I've driven a diesel BMW and I was amazed! This thing flies! The way that 3 litre engine hurls that 2 tonne machine is unbelievable. It feels exciting when flooring it in a way I thought I wouldn't feel, coming from a 500 BHP 5 series to a 250 BHP 7 series if you know what I mean.

I was very impressed indeed. The 740d must be fantastic.

I can only imagine what the new 535d M sport with 306 BHP and a lower weight feels like. Especially once chipped and perhaps some Hartge springs just to lower it and improve the handling a bit more.

I'm seriously thinking about going for one. My only problem is I HATE buying new cars. I don't mind paying for my cars but don't have money to burn and so like to limit depreciation as much as possible.

The 535d M sport once specced the way I want it (ie high spec to match what I've got used to on the M5) comes to £54k! That's £2k more than I paid for my M5.

Anybody know whether discounts are available on cars like this.

Thanks for reading my ramblings.

Matteeboy

If you wait just six months you'll see some cheap ones.

Interesting hearing your findings! The soot chuckers aren't so bad are they? ;-)

Dingdongler

That's what I thought. It's just difficult waiting especially with car that has a fault. I've never really kept an eye on diesel BMW prices before. What did they drop by on the E60 after 6 months, any idea?

And yes, I'm mighty impressed by the soot chuckers

ps, I do wonder how bad the depreciation would be. What would be the trade in value of a £50k 535dMS after three years? Would it still be £25k, or less??
Tbh, I bought the M5 for £52k three years ago and I reckon they will offer me about £15k for it px. It only has 44k miles and biggish spec but I've picked up a few dents and scratches and kerbed all the alloys etc.
So I've have lost £37k on that over three years, if the 535d 'only' loses £25k it'll be a bargain! As well as the lower fuel and insurance costs.
It will then leave me with £25k deposit to put down on a F10 M5 when its 2 years old and about £50k

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

sell your M5 and run something cheapish for 6months while keeping an eye of the 535 prices?

Dingdongler

My car has a few minor issues. Fine to px into a dealer but I wouldn't want to try and sell it like that, I'd have to put them right and that will all cost

Matteeboy

Ding - not sure about depreciation but will be a fraction of the hit you've taken on the M5.

Our 335d is easily the slowest depreciating car we've ever had but then we got a bit lucky on the purchase price/almost no mileage.

You must try a 35d unit car - considerably nippier than the 30d version.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Ding - did the demo car have the various chassis options fitted. From what I have seen it reviews well with the options (around £4,500) but not well without.

Nice to hear you enjoyed them!

Dingdongler

Thanks Matt. I'm dying to try the 35d unit.

Trouty, the suspension options you mention include 'active damper control' (which I think is the most important one). Those mods are incompatible with the M Sport suspension so you need to delete the M Sport suspension (on a M Sport car) to then put the active damper control on. Doesn't make any sense, if you know what I mean?

But this car handled really well. I think the M Sport suspension sorts it out as well as the active dampers do. I wonder if it was all a marketing ploy? Give the standard car soft suspension so it may steal sales from MB, and then anybody who wants the more focused set up can either pay £4.5k extra for the mods on a SE car or buy the M Sport car.

zip106

Do they still run the M Sports on standard run flats?

I know the last model did (like mine, but we opted for 19" with proper tyres) and many people found the bigger wheels to ride better than the smaller runflats.

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

OK, lets disprove the damper cods wallop that you might be fed by salesmen.

The M5 comes(or should i say came as it is no longer in production) with electronic damper control (EDK)
This was a special shock with an electronically controlled valve mounted on the top of it. (look on the shock top mounts, and you'll see the wiring mounted on the turrets...aimed at Ding here) This valve (depending on the voltage applied) will open or close to stifen, or soften the damper's rates.
To change the damping rate of the shocks, the dme (engine ecu) coupled with the dsc (traction control) will be switched via the button in the cockpit, or by pushing the "M" button on the steering wheel.
These units will change the dampers between three settings, comfort, sport, and m dynamic.
The springs are just standard M5 spec, nothing is altered on these electronically.
Along with these settings, throttle, steering responsiveness, gearbox shift severity, diff lock, and traction control versitility will all be changed (depending on the settings you choose)

So thats the lesson over.

There is no way BMW will fit all of this technology, and then remove it just to fit standard msport suspension. Don't be fooled!

Active dampers are a watered down version of the M5, M6, M3 damping system.
There is still electronic control of the dampers yes, but the only other change you'll see in the car is throttle response, and if it is an auto, you'll see a difference in the shift table.

The only cars with "standard" suspension i think you'll see really, will be the 525i's and the 520's etc that have not chosen the Msport package.

Msport suspension and active damper control are both pretty expensive to produce/expensive componont wise.

Guys, the technology in our Diesel units today is unbelievable when compared to our engines of 10-12 years ago.
1.Massive advances in turbo manufacture (such as variable vein, twin scroll, and twin turbo systems you see in the 23d, 35d),
2.Injector design (using piezo crystal inards),
3.Coupled with massively high fuel pressures provided by new fuel pumps (which need no timing!),
4.And reductions in engine weight (use of aluminium and magnesium alloys) and the weights shaved off of our cars now in general.
5.New engine design (such as piston crown design, intake tract design, crank strengths optimised)
All of this above means that we can tune our diesels to produce massively high power outputs, yet remain extremely economical! Almost the best of both worlds.
Plus the term "dirty diesel" is almost defunct now thanks to the invention of particualte filters, and in tank additive systems. Which near totally stop the sooting you see in some other makes.

Ding, personally i'd avoid the 740d. Been looking around on our infonet system and there are very few of these about.
If you get one and something goes wrong with the engine, i can pretty much guarantee catagorically that you'll need to take it to main dealer (as no "specialist" will have the foggiest as to how that engine is put together/works. Or fix it competantly!)
Plus if you are at the mercy of the dealer, you then have to suffer the fact that you wont see the car for a week at best, while they try to figure it out!!

The 35d unit is a seriously good engine. A good friend of mine has a 535d msport packaged saloon.
It has an auto logic remap (which gives roughly 40-50 bhp and almost 100lbs/ft of torque increase!)
It just pulls and pulls and pulls.
Plus it is quiet on long journeys, comfey, and frugal!
The only down side to diesels is that you need to be very strict with servicing the engine oil (8000 miles max is my rule, even though BMW state longer, i've seen the results first hand of neglect! not fun.)
Oh, and you don't get the nice exhaust notes of the m powers and 35 petrol units.

Ok to the tyres/wheels.
M power cars came with standard tyres with an "M" tyre solution and pump to save you incase of a puncture.
Msports come with runflats, which ruin the ride i think.
The best size alloy for the e60 and f10 is 18", it still looks nice yet doesn't compramise the car's handling. Plus before the M power squad turn up going on about the m3, m5, m6 having 19's. The suspension was designed to work around the wheels on an m power. Its the other way around on the rest of the ranges!
18" with non runflats will get you the best all round function from the car.

PHEW!

zip106

Good write up!

As for the wheel issue...

When we specced our car (2007 520d M sport) the standard wheels were 18" with runflats.
I found it an absolute abhorrent drive and looked crap - so underwheeled.

We specced ours with the 19" non runflats and it drives fantastically - a bit of tramlining but not much.

However, you say 18" with normal tyres? Wasn't even an option for us at the time.

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

You can't spec 18"s with standards.
You can get the car with runflats, then simply remove them (and ebay crap out of those bad boys) then fit standard tyres on. This will improve the ride and handling immediately!

Dingdongler

Rooky thanks.

Maybe I've confused the issue. What I meant was that if you specify a M Sport car and then opt for 'adaptive drive' (sorry called it something wrong before) then the M sport suspension is deleted. This happens on the BMW website configurator when you tick the adaptive drive option.

So my question is are you saying that you think that the adaptive drive suspension would be better than the M Sport suspension.

Thanks

Dingdongler

Rooky thanks.

Maybe I've confused the issue. What I meant was that if you specify a M Sport car and then opt for 'adaptive drive' (sorry called it something wrong before) then the M sport suspension is deleted. This happens on the BMW website configurator when you tick the adaptive drive option.

So my question is are you saying that you think that the adaptive drive suspension would be better than the M Sport suspension.

Thanks

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

Ah i see what you're getting at.
The configurator is selecting the msport car, so you get the msport bodywork, sport seats, steering wheel, alloys, door sill shuts, msport suspension, all loaded onto the car spec.
By then selecting the adaptive drive, the system will remove the msport suspension as they are two different systems. (however you should retain the rest of the msport spec on the car)
The factory would only fit one type, depending on the vehicle order (the spec you selected)
Adaptive drive is better in my opinion yes Ding. As you can do multiple functions with the shocks. i.e soften up the suspension on the days you just want to take it easy on yourself/the car. or set it to a hard setting on the days you want to impersonate the stig!
Just remember, if you ever need to replace a faulty shock and it's not covered under warranty (car older than 3 years) then it will most definately be more expensive as a component and as a job to replace in comparison to the msport shocks.
Hope that clears things up for you mate.

Dingdongler

Thanks Rooky.

SPIDERWRX

test drive the 535i too , remap & Milltek Exhausts , will allmost match your m5 to 120mph

mamoon2

Dingdongler...... Presuming your M5 is on an 07 plate? Its trade value is £24k (Based on CAP Average condition)

If BMW only offer you £15k for it, PM me and i'll give you a bit more

mamoon2

Also, to add to your point about modern diesel engines... I've got the 170hp VAG diesel unit in my Leon and I can't see myself ever going back to petrol.

40mpg around town and plenty of poke is great! Much better than the Discovery I had before it but think i'll either be sticking with the VAG range or moving onto the BMW 330d next.

Dingdongler

Spider thanks. I really want to try a diesel this time, don't know why just fancy having a car for once that doesn't have me in the petrol station every other day.

Mamoon, it's a 55 plate, Oct 2005 iirc. It's got a few dents and scratches to sort out but is below avge mileage at 42000 and has a few extras like the extended leather with ventilated seats etc. Any chance you could see what the trade in value is for that?

I tried one of those on line brokers and that's saving me about £4k minimum on the specced car. Anybody else tried www.autoebid.co.uk?

Thanks

mamoon2

£22k trade

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I have used autoebid a couple of times. Both times were successful. My last car we did not use autoebid out of loyalty to a good dealership - although I did use them to benchmark the price!!!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I think the biggest cirticisms of the 5seires handling is from the die hard 5series fans (except usual run flat blah blah), it no longer has the big car with small car handling/feel, which it was once renowned for.

Arguably, that died off when the car put on weight which is e39 onwards, but obviously every version thereafter has become larger and more heavier than the old school e34, so really its been a gradual departure from those original dynamics; Its more about the interior gadgets and comfort these days.

Dingdongler

I must say I couldn't disagree more. Having driven the new 5 with 19 inch run flats and M Sport suspension I was amazed. The car does shrink around you and feels like driving a much smaller car. I can't imagine another car of this size would handle better. Adaptive drive will only improve matters further.

Anybody who thinks that a e39 handles better than the F10 needs their head tested

Dingdongler

Thanks. PX will be the problem though, I wonder if there is a way around that?

john banks

I would be a bit worried about the repair costs of a modern diesel with expensive injectors, pumps, particulate filters. You could end up paying out more for these than you save on fuel costs, even if it is indirectly in the form of warranty costs and residual values. A fairly decent diesel car can be effectively written off for what would be minor/inexpensive repairs on a petrol engine. As this happens more I wonder what will happen to the residual values of diesels.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Not used them for a couple of years but they used to buy cars/arrange part exchange.

Dingdongler

Really? Is this happening a lot? I've not heard this much in terms of bmw/vag/mb diesels? Can you shed anymore light on what you mean?

Thanks

john banks

BMW diesels are well known for injector failure, VAGs do high pressure fuel pumps. Don't know about MB.

I'd take a normally aspirated petrol V8 with cam chain(s) and port injection and and a conventional automatic with fixed but good dampers and sensibly sized wheels for something reliable and cheap to run whilst being luxurious. But then I wouldn't buy a car like this newish, and my mileage is low. I'd also be wary of many direct injection petrol engines and lots of stuff on extended service intervals.

Recalls aside, I would like an LS460 one day when I grow up.

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

Jonn, the diesel injectors you mention, were mostly occuring on the m57 and m57tu engines upto 2006 really. i haven't changed a single diesel injector for about 10 months now (been changing alot of the direct injection petrol ones!!), however between 2003-2006 i was doing at least a set a week!
With warranty on any BMW diesel, with previously mentioned faults would most definately be covered (however they have nearly all been made bullet proof!! )
The only weak link in any modern dieselis the particulate filter.
Diesels are very efficient so they don't produce as much heat as a petrol engine.
This is a problem for particulate filters as they become clogged with the soot diesels produce, and the only way to burn off that soot is to get the filter (particulate) very hot.
The only way to burn soot off a particulate filter is to get the exhasut hot by either....
a. Take the car on a motorway run
b. Perform some entheusiastic driving skills (as long as it's legal!)

However the engine's ecu does monitor the filter, and will perform a regeneration.
It does this by making the gearbox hold it's revs, and by changing injector fueling to make the exhaust hotter!!
The side effects of this would be the feeling of the gearbox being in "sport" mode even when it's not, and a slight drop in fuel economy. Both of these would be temporary however.