Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050473)

Sure they have influence but so do many Lobby groups in the US.

Enough influence to say Obama is 'their puppet'?

I'm afraid they have no proof of that and it's the old paranoid anti-semitism about Jews running the world in secret again.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10050582)

Look at the evidence Tone, Clinton tried it, and failed, Obama will come a cropper too, mark my words.

I offered you a bet on who will win ths one. You won't take my bet, or any bet, because you know I am right.

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050467)

I'm not sure what your point is Mus? Yes the US has help arm Israel but it's never fought Israeli wars as you seem to imply.

The US has aided many sovereign nations under threat, including Kosovo. Does that mean Obama is a Kosovian or Muslim puppet?

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10050580)

It would seem, that as far as we (you and I) are concerned, it is the others' fault.

IMO, Israel holds more cards and really has the key to peace. I asked you previously what would mean peace for Israel. Palestinians not attacking Israel for how long? Then accepting the little bits of whatever Israel may deign to grant them? How long do you thnk that would take? Do you see it as realistic?

This is a totally one sided conflict, where Israel is completely in control. They have an iron grip on the freedom of the Palestinians, that is not a good thing. I asked you to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian and you cannot. That is why people like you do not resolve disputes, but rather create and perpetuate them.

Seems that, going on the above that the Israeli govt and Hamas seem to understand and need each other. Recipe for disaster.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10050580)

They're just returning the favour Tone, as I keep saying, as bad as each other. You just favour one side so much, you are happy for the other to be killed off. If you honestly think that is a way for the future, I suggest you have a screw loose.

That is what you think isn't it?

Who will win, Obama or Netanyahu? Will you take my bet?

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050604)

It's a Non sequitur - that just because the peace process fails, then Obama must be a Jewish puppet.

You could equally use the same argument to say he is a Pally puppet.

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050618)

Israel has done unilateral withdrawals and ceasefire but these have not promoted peace, instead the other side - whether it be Hamas, other Pally terror groups, Hezzbollah (back by Iran etc), has always gone on the offensive and not reciprocated the Israeli behavior.

So I don't see how you can say Israel holds all the cards.

The Pallies don't even hold all their own cards while the likes of Iran (via Hezzbolah) all have an interest in perpetuating the conflict..

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050618)

I'm not happy for anyone to be killed off, so stop that disgusting accusation now please.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10050621)

So the most powerful man in the World can't get his way?

You are achieving new heights in ridiculousness, well done.:Whatever_:D

Originally Posted by Mus (Post 10050612)

that video made another point which goes to show the real jews dont support isreal!!!!! when the united nation was escorting innocent civilains from the south of beirut isreali soldiers let them out waited till they got a bit further out bombed them and killed them but thats ok they killed united nation soldiers and inncoent civilains and the the US support that.

EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE THE REAL JEWS ARE AGAINST ISREAL???

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050793)

The POTUS is not omnipotent nor is he a world Dictator. That's not how it works.

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050797)

Some Jewish sects don't support Zionism but it's mostly on Theological grounds; they believe the Jewish state should not rise until the Messiah comes.

I'm not sure why you qualify them as 'real Jews'....who are you to decide that?

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10050967)

Tony the offer at camp david was laughable so why do you keep going on about it. That offer was a pisstaking joke and was never going to be acceptable. Arrafat made a counter offer at Taba. The peace talks were then ended by Israel. Those are the facts so stop telling lies.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10050950)

When did I say that? You'd think he would have some sway though wouldn't you, unless of course, he has none.

Are you going to take my bet?

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050993)

It was no joke. Arafat would have got 95% of the territory he wanted and compensation for displaced Palestinians.

Originally Posted by tony

After Camp David you had the 2nd Intifada and that included cold blooded murder of those two Israeli reservists.

Hardly a great precursor to re-negotiation, and the Israelis had elections.

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10051087)

That 95% was based on land exchanges it was not the land arafat or palestinains wanted it was good fertile occupied farmland exchanged for the negev desert in Israel. In terms of value it was a joke offer. Worthless desert in exchange for farm land ? And still 5% less than what you should have ? You think that is a fair offer ? In any respect there were a variety of other conditions that made the offer a joke. Why can't you accept the relaity of the shambolic offer at camp david.

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10051087)

Are you talking about the second infitada that sharon deliberately provoked by visiting the temple mount ?

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10051092)

Second question. do supporters of Israel accept that if Israel had any intention of leaving the occupied territory then they would never have built jewish villages there ?

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10050998)

Now you are presenting an either/or fallacy.

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10051092)

A question for the Israel supporters, do you accept that the goal of zionism was to remove arabs from the land of Israel ?

Second question. do supporters of Israel accept that if Israel had any intention of leaving the occupied territory then they would never have built jewish villages there ?

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10051158)

Sure, murder an Israeli reservist in cold blood and disembowel him and blame a Politician visiting a temple.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10051167)

There is a loony settle fringe in Israeli society, but if Israel (as a whole) had no intention to withdraw then why did they withdraw from Gaza and dismantle a number of settlements in the West Bank in 2005.

Don't you remember the scenes on TV of the IDF dragging away screaming settler families from Gaza?

It is interesting because the Likud said this plan would backfire allowing Hamas to use Gaza as a base to attack Israel...and guess what happened?

Originally Posted by David Lock (Post 10051192)

Why don't they strike a deal so that the Palestinians are given back the occupied territories but lease the area to Israel and charge them. That way the Palestinians can claim to have at last got their land back but Israelis can live their safely.

Simplistic I know but could be a good starting point. Bit like Hong Kong and China and something I have always wondered about in an Ireland/NI context.

dl

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10051706)

How many women and children had he murdered up to that point? How many women and children were saved by his passing?

Oh yeah, he was just following orders, right? :Whatever_:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10051703)

So what? Have a stab at it. I don't know for certain, but it may well be one or the other.

What about my bet?

Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 10051732)

Another question for the tottenham lot. Why do Israels supporters always attribute terrorist attacks as the responsability of the entire palestinian people. If a terrorist attacks israel then Israels supporters always claim palestine attacked israeĺ.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10051709)

Please don't post sensible suggestion like that. Israel won't like it. :D

Originally Posted by David Lock (Post 10051929)

And Israel wouldn't like it if Obama stopped USA aid to them. Nothing will happen if Obama pussy foots around trying to keep the US Jewish lobby happy. Time for him to get his gloves off if he wants real change out there. I guess he would struggle getting support from Congres - ?? - but he woud get the support of the UN and probably most pals of US in Middle East. dl

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10051801)

I'm can't believe I'm reading this...you are actually trying to justify cold blooded murder!?