Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10051872)

The bet is pointless since you are going to draw an conclusion based on faulty logic.

Originally Posted by David Lock (Post 10051929)

And Israel wouldn't like it if Obama stopped USA aid to them. Nothing will happen if Obama pussy foots around trying to keep the US Jewish lobby happy. Time for him to get his gloves off if he wants real change out there. I guess he would struggle getting support from Congress - ?? - but he woud get the support of the UN and probably most pals of US in Middle East. dl

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10051932)

What exactly is Obamas ultimatum going to be?

Rhetoric about pre-1967 borders sounds impressive, but this has been agreed upon in principle with Israel and Fatah, it's other issues such as right of return, temple mount, issues or border security etc which are the sticking points.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052017)

You must be an amazing clairvoyant or something Tony, you must win the lottery every week.:D

Why don't you explain your point, exactly why you won't take the bet, or just concede that I am right?

Won't kill you, we might even move this discussion on.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052017)

You must be an amazing clairvoyant or something Tony, you must win the lottery every week.:D

Why don't you explain your point, exactly why you won't take the bet, or just concede that I am right?

Won't kill you, we might even move this discussion on.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052022)

I agree with this point. :eek:

This backs up what I am saying though Tone, nothing will change, not unless Israel gets some humongous concessions out of the US first. Watch...

Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10052026)

Please do. ;)

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10052027)

Don't be obtuse.

You are trying to draw the conclusion - if Obama doesn't get his way - that he must be a Puppet of the Jewish Lobby.

I've pointed out that this conclusion is based on faulty logic.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052042)

Coming from you, "Don't be obtuse" is utterly priceless. How many questions have you ducked and dived on on this thread alone?

So, if Obama doesn't get his way, why will that be, Mystic Meg?

Explain the faulty logic or admit to being a chicken. CLUCK CLUCK!!

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10052035)

It doesn't back up what you are saying about Obama being a Puppet at all.

There are numerous examples of the US not getting its way. It's not had it's way in Pakistan, in Iraq, in Afghanistan.

Pirates still attack ships off the East coast of African etc, does that mean Obama is a puppet of the Pirates?

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10052048)

I've explained in it previous posts on this thread.

No offense but you need a lesson in logic and reasoning.

Obama won't get his way overnight because both sides have differences which so far have proved irreconcilable.

If the US was the Puppet of Israel we wouldn't even be having this conversion. The Pallies would have been kicked out of the West Bank and Gaza and the conflict would have been resolved that way.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052049)

It's like explaining it to my three year old, correction, you are more difficult!:D

I'll type this slowly. If Obama and the Pirates were in talks together, as 'allies', (although the term 'allies' implies a two way relationship) and Obama was furnishing them with nice new pirate ships, faster than all of the merchant vessels going past Somalia at that time, then Obama asked them to stop being pirates and they said no, then your point might be valid.

Otherwise you are descending from obtuse to something worse.

Now come up with something sensible or leave this thread! :D

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10052059)

I have a plane to catch so my last post for now...this is better.

Didn't see your explanation, sorry if I missed it. What post number please?

Isn't there a UN resolution this this effect, about what Obama is asking Israel for? So what's the problem? We all obey UN resolutions don't we?

Who do you think will 'win', or compromise the least, as regards to their irreconcilable differences?

I am willing to bet that Israel will come out on top. Don't take my bet, but we will come back to this point when it happens.

By not taking my bet you obviously agree with me.

Speak tomorrow, wish me Bon Voyage!!

Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10052033)

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10052065)

The US gives aid and arms to many countries. Are they all controlling the US as a 'Puppet'?

Is the US a Puppet of Turkey?

The PA also gets a huge amount of financial aid from the West (EU and US).

Do you actually know how much military aid Israel gets each year? It's not actually as much as you think, hence why much of their hardware is indigenous.

Given your belief that the US is Israels Puppet, then why has a resolution to the conflict not been imposed upon the Palestinians? I mean you have the worlds military superpower to force this solution on a few million.

Makes no sense.

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10052070)

Israels enemies have never obeyed any resolution right from when they first attacked. Obeying UN resolution is a luxury for those who don't have to sleep next to their gun at night.

Both sides have to compromise to get a long term solution, but the problem is so many people on the anti-Israel side have so much to loose if the Pallies agree peace. If the more secular/progressive Pally side agree to sign for peace then you can bet the Islamists etc will keep on the offense and places like Gaza will have to stay on Israeli lockdown and that keeps the conflict going.

Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10052101)

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent, antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for achieving global domination."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Hamas Covenant

"The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Hamas: "let's negotiate, it is nice and good yes, thank you-please."
Netanyahu: :cuckoo:

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10054099)

I can go with that, looks spot on to me.

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10054087)

I've answered all your questions already Tone, why don't you ask them again?

Originally Posted by JTaylor (Post 10052101)

"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent, antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for achieving global domination."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Hamas Covenant

"The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Hamas: "let's negotiate, it is nice and good yes, thank you-please."
Netanyahu: :cuckoo:

Originally Posted by AsifScoob (Post 10054097)

The Anti Israelis are actually concerned for the Palestinians Tony and their right to their own land. The pro Israelis are concerned about Israels 'right' to others' land.

Originally Posted by tony de wonderful (Post 10054378)

You should right a poem about their 'concern' for the Pallies, read it like a School Girl in assembly.:rolleyes:

The pro-Palestinian side couldn't give a toss about the Pallies. The Arabs keep them locked up in refugee camps after all this time and deny them citizenship and rights etc. I'm talking Jordan, Syrian etc.

Gadaffi kicked them out of Libya and told them to walk home a few years ago.

Rich Arab states could have resettled them years ago just doesn't suit them to have the problem solved. Their elites use the Israelis to focus their populations anger and frustration on...to divert the blame from their own failings.

The Islamists exploit the conflict for their own political ends, and the euro left exploit the conflict to give themselves some relevance.

Believe me, the last thing they do is 'care' about the Pallies. It's just a pose.

Originally Posted by f1_fan (Post 10054394)

And Israel and the pro Jewish West are all cuddly teddy bears with no agendas whatsoever and should be admired and left to live happily ever after as well as being given a yearly Nobel Peace prize....

Sorry I know that is bollocks but you started it!

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 10055016)

good piece in the paper today re the reporting of the conflict

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011...flict-coverage

Now comes hard evidence to support these views, gathered by Greg Philo and his Glasgow University Media Group, who have monitored and analysed four separate periods of BBC and ITN coverage between late 2000 and the spring of 2002. Bad News From Israel makes the scientifically based case that the main news and current affairs programmes - with the rare exception, usually on Channel 4 - are failing to tell us the real story and the reasons behind it. They use a distorted lens.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 (Post 10055739)

The article is written by

Tim Llewellyn who was BBC Middle East correspondent from 1976-80 and 1987-92

so what would he know

you keep beleiveing in fairies at the bottom of the garden - and it will all turn out OK in the end