Thats the one!

He's not a bad troll really ;)

He looks mischievous, my kind of troll!

John thats great, I always felt that you were very torn between the two areas with both offering very different but equally challenging ways of life, hadn't realised you had got that deeply into the GTR .. respect, its not an easy one to play with.

Its very sad that the days of being able to exchange and discuss the different aspects of tuning at whatever level seem to be gone, all I can say is the person who thinks he knows it all actually knows nothing and the most experienced are those who never stop asking and listening to the answers gleaning everything they can in the process at whatever level.

So I guess we are not getting to see any graphs then.

I was offering to demonstrate the limitations of the oem lambda on any car, not ToneH's to be honest ... and was very happy for him to sit and look over my shoulder while I did that, with the owner driving of course. That would have given clear and conclusive information relating to the debate and, simply put, was me putting my money where my mouth is.

Think I am with John ... there is no point in this.

cheers all

bob

As per usual I have ( by my own admission ) come across as pig headed , arrogant ect , ect
I'm not back tracking or trying to justify my reaction

Yes with this topic I am pig headed , the reason being I have gone down the route of the rescaled / positioned 02 and keep getting the same result
Now I've asked outright to certain mappers have you any experience of such an altered 02
The closest comment I got was from John ( bobs seen many pseudo 02)
Now tbh I don't know what is meant by this
A stock O2 used for logging ? A stock 02 rescaled? Repositioned ?
So I'm in the dark regarding that
Second , I can only see what's physically in front of me and knowing my methods are considered wrong , the first thing I asked after my run was how's the fuelling looking
The exact reply was " bottom and light cruise could do with looking at , but that could either be because you're 02 is now not functioning correct because its now been altered and moved , or it could be you're map ( totally fair and reasonable comment )
But from mid to top it's ok , so I then got my graph , now previously I've been logging from peak boost around the 4k mark to redline , targeting 11.2 , this is what my logs have shown , so obviously when I see my graph mirror my logs I can only draw one conclusion ( oh the 02 is right ) I can't say it's not because it is
So I'm now stuck with logs + clinic graph that's in front of me that's saying one thing and a group of folk on the Internet saying its a fluke and you can't rely on it
So needless to say I'm confused to say the least and being spoken to like I can't read what I see or I've got it all wrong doesn't help the situation
Third , it's often said I've been arrogant , or whatever when I've ignored help or advice
I'll state quite clear I've asked various folk for help way before I picked up a laptop and cable and only one offered , Duncan , his reply was i will map you're car and show you what I've done , now this is the best offer of help I had , but at the time I had very very little knowledge of what mapping was and highly unlikely I would have grasped much at the time , and also would have had to pay to have my car mapped , so not really the route I wanted ( at the time )
So as for everyone thinking there are offers of help around every corner are mistaken , like I've said most advice is given after I have done something and usually in a condescending manner , even more so when I question things. ( btw which is exactly what I would do face to face )
And the last issue I have is the portrayal that because I'm pig headed , arrogant is that I'm stupid and I'm heading for disaster or a cock up
Hence my point about johns maff scaling , Simons pipe ect
We will all have and will do things that can either lead to a cock up or needing help and have taken short cuts that are not always the correct way of doing something
It's part of learning
We have a pm system on here and at no time has anyone involved in my threads pmd me
And said "hey tone honestly bud , what you're doing dont work , I've worked with the same method and it did x or y
All I get is you're deluded , not a real world example ( which for me being not the brightest is preferable )

Hence shove it , I'll learn the hard way ;)

Bob ,I don't want to sound off hand or patronising but , when you say you will show me in someone's car , you do know the 02 has got to be rescaled and repositioned ,( what I'm running ) not just the reading from the stock 02
( even though rescaled yielded closer results , but as said not close enough )
I'm sure you're not visiting that many folk who are running the 02 in such a manner ?

Like I said have any of you got any experience of rescaled & repositioned 02 ( not stock)

I was offering to demonstrate the limitations of the oem lambda on any car, not ToneH's to be honest ... and was very happy for him to sit and look over my shoulder while I did that, with the owner driving of course. That would have given clear and conclusive information relating to the debate and, simply put, was me putting my money where my mouth is.

bob its my lambda and car we were supposed to be discussing
Like I said not a car with a stock 02 set up !

Four things are now puzzling me
After being told I'm totally wrong
1) it seems odd experienced mappers have not asked the revised scaling
2) not asked the location
3) an offer to be shown a car for the inaccuracies of a stock lambda ( but not mine )
4) the all of a sudden lack of comments or replies

Hey ,or it maybe me just being synical again

Btw , if any of the posters who think I'm a cock or up my own arris would like to comment on the use of repositioned & rescaled 02s please feel free to do so at this point ;)

Changing the angle, and I don't have references handy for the specific sensors involved, those recently in the Subaru world will know better, but look at the design of the sensor you're using. Number of wires, what compensations there are in the sensor to make it accurate over the required wideband range at all EGTs. If you read up on the differences between a narrow and wideband sensor you'll see some of the ingredients that are missing on these sorts of pseudo wideband.

On the other side of the argument, the R35 sensors are a bit of a middle ground too compared to a quality aftermarket wideband, but at least in using them to tune you note that the OEM ECU has validated them sufficiently to use them full time for AFR control.

Other middle ground sensors are LSM11. http://www.sensorzine.com/lsm11-bosc...-note-121.html

Consider also L1H1 from an old Honda that was in many early affordable Techedge widebands, and the now more commonly used LSU series http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/s...mbda/lsu49.pdf

This is gold: http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang.../section_a.pdf

Please stick with me John , seriously I'm not that smart
I remember reading up on the various sensors and iirc the Subaru sensor was commonly referred to as a narrow band but was in effect a wideband sensor
Ill do some more reading up

I've read these types of articles regarding the Subaru sensor
Which does lead me to believe the sensor itself should be able to do the job


A variation on the zirconia sensor, called the "wideband" sensor, was introduced by Robert Bosch in 1994 but is (as of 2006) used in only a few vehicles (such as the Subaru Impreza WRX when equipped with a manual transmission). It is based on a planar zirconia element, but also incorporates an electrochemical gas pump. An electronic circuit containing a feedback loop controls the gas pump current to keep the output of the electrochemical cell constant, so that the pump current directly indicates the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. This sensor eliminates the lean-rich cycling inherent in narrow-band sensors, allowing the control unit to adjust the fuel delivery and ignition timing of the engine much more rapidly. In the automotive industry this sensor is also called a UEGO (for Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor. UEGO sensors are also commonly used in aftermarket dyno tuning and high-performance driver air-fuel display equipment. The wideband zirconia sensor is used in stratified fuel injection systems, and can now also be used in diesel engines to satisfy the forthcoming EURO and ULEV emission limits.

The sensor it's self ( too me ) seems suitable for the job , the question is the ecu
Up to it , but given the correct scale and location of the sensor I wouldn't imagine it would be such a difficult task for the ecu to cope with , it is capable to read and adjust afr in c/l , so given enough range it should be able to cope with reading o/l

It is commonly thought the subaru sensor is basically an on / off switch , rich / lean
But according to various information it isn't

Like I say John given the correct conditions I do believe the sensor can be put to use

Now you know how I think , ( odd logic )
But let's say we establish the 02 is suitable and placed in position for its new purpose and scaled to within a usable range
That leaves the ecu , we know the ecu is capable of sending and receiving signals for hundreds of parameters a second ,
I'm sure it can quite easily read the signal from an O2 sensor with a good degree of accuracy ,
It does it in the original location , why not from the sensor in a new location


Lol basically a repeat of post 73 , I'm tired

I've probably posted this before , now we know disregard posts or comparisons with the 02 in its stock location pre turbo ( not accurate enough for most )
And also we know we can rescale to make a more usable range
I'll leave it with you guys , I can't do any more to explain why I have done what I've done and how I've got my afr results

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1922848

Do you have a reference for the quote in post #72 and have they referenced their source? (I quibble because a lot of info gets recycled incorrectly and it is news to me that it is a proper rather than a pseudowideband). Do we have a datasheet for the sensor? It is OK rescaling and relocating, if you get consistent readings with respect to a wideband in all conditions you're likely to encounter but I haven't seen anyone demonstrating that. Bob doesn't see that and I didn't see that when I tuned bugeyes. I personally did not move the sensor though. Maybe if we still have Bob he can comment more.

Scatter here from the NAGTROC thread you linked with the sensor at the top of the downpipe doesn't look nice, ignoring the wider part of it around stoich which would have a lot more transients, the scatter at AFRs on boost is wide. The Subaru service manual doesn't say over which AFR range it is accurate, it just implies a wider range.

https://i193.photobucket.com/albums/...ing/DualO2.png

Iirc it is mentioned that the comparisons are assuming the after market w/b is all good ( which there is no guarantee )

At least it's seems we are moving in a more positive direction

If not already done , maybe bob has experience of rescaled / repositioned and has done some testing already ( if not it might be an idea )

I hope you can understand where I have got my
Ideas and way of thinking and maybe we can move forward A little better with the topic

As far as a data sheet for the sensor ( I've not really looked at the exact specifications )
But the general opinion is that it is a wideband sensor.
Here's another article that mentions 02 wrx specifically , the spec data may be on the site somewhere

http://www.lambdapower.co.uk/TechNotes/Tech-8.asp

I think the key factor in trying to achieve accurate readings does lie with the repositioning more than the rescaling
I am very interested to hear from anyone who is running the same as me and what results they have observed

Repositioning and the nature of the sensor itself and how dependent its readings are on EGT.

The general consensus from the evidence I can find ,is the sensor itself should be up to the job
We do know the position on the down pipe post turbo seems ( is ) a must

I'm assuming you're asking the egt dependency based on the need to heat the sensor ?

I have a feeling John I might be pretty much on my own with this set up
As we know DIY Subaru mapping here in the uk is not as popular as in the states , let alone messing with 02 sensors

Just have to see who else pops up

Not just heating of the sensor as narrowbands have a heater but their output away from stoich varies with EGT. I'm partly encouraged from the information you have linked, but partly discouraged by the scatter on the graph. Is +-0.4 AFR (where most of the data is apart from outliers which are likely transients) good enough for you? It might be depending on your purpose.

One other potential issue is the inter-sensor variance which the graph doesn't show, it only shows intra-sensor variance.

Your losing me a little John , don't forget I'm not that sharp lol
I agree 0.4 is straying a little
The trouble is with reading someone's data on the net , is we don't really know what he's done or adjusted either car wise or graph wise , that's why it would be nice for someone's input who's tried it here
Have you a feeling the stock 02 may be more susceptible to egt change and may skew the readings ?

What I mean by the last sentence is that one particular sensor might be consistent with itself, but another sensor may be different. Even that might be useful though if you validate the sensor against a wideband.

My worry though is indeed that the stock O2 may be more susceptible to EGT changes and that might explain some of the scatter. Even that might still be useful if you warm up the car on a given route and then give it a blast through a gear at WOT.

One thing for sure John is that this method does seem on the face of it feasible , as I believe , but not commonly done , hence I think the initial response I've had
But I think because of the small amount using such a method the data and input seems very limited
Could it be possible that two people running the same method but having the 02 positioned different distances away from the turbo could yield different results , or slightly different down pipe / exhaust meaning pressure fluctuations , yet again bringing in a different reading
The trouble is due to the fact an aftermarket w/b is now pretty cheap means for most people all this messing about isn't worth the hassle or as some think the risk

But somehow it's a route I've gone down and will continue to pursue it
Like I've said to you John I'm a born meddler and messer
Hell it beats just plugging an aftermarket w/b in and is far more educational , one way or another ;)

Anyone ?

I'm sure out of all you mappers one of you must have tried and tested it at some time over the years

nail on head

why bother flogging a dead horse :brickwall when accurate wideband sensors are far more reliable, accurate and useful as a tool. The subaru sensor is only supposed to be accurate for closed loop fueling and is only used for that because of that.

We know the primary use for it Duncan , but the question is how does it function with a few changes
Have you tried it ?, and why are my afrs the same as the clinics using the repositioned method

I've also been reading about pat h commenting on variances in wb full stop

If you read my posts it's just something I'm interested in following up

Why do the most simple questions go unanswered
Everyone's chipped in and had their say
And none other than John has answered the most basic question

Duncan , bob , have you tried it ? If so what results did you observe ?