Simply....

the wheels act as gyroscopes, and the force required to deviate them from a chosen path is quite large...

HTH

dunx

And if doing a wheelie, the bike comes down and catches a pothole or manhole cover, that same gyroscope that made it safe, suddenly makes it a whole hill of beans more dangerous!

I can understand why you feel that way and in all honesty I would think exactly the same way unless I had seen it for myself.

It first happened to me on my old ZZR 1100 on the way out of a rounadabout on the A303 on the way to Thruxton. It was a tightish turn on a dry road and as I was turning I accelerated. The front wheel came off the ground a short way but the bike continued round the corner just as before with no deviation. All the cornering was being done by the rear wheel. Bit like a unicycle I suppose. I was pretty surprised at the time and woiuld not have believed it unless I had seen it. The torque from the rear wheel removed the need for the cornering force from the front wheel!

Under normal cornering both wheels supply the cornering forces of course, and if you are in that situation then a bad discontinuity such as a pothole or drain cover can cause the front wheel to lose grip with the ensuing crash. Yes I agree that a bad bump from such a problem if it made the front wheel change its lock could cause a significant gyroscopic force. it could cause a force tending to increase or decrease the bike's lean depending on which way the wheel lock changed. That is a very good reason that the average 'biker will look ahead and pick his path to avoid such hazards. You don't usually have to do it more than once to learn! It is the gyroscopic force in fact that is used by the rider to lean the bike into a bend or to come back up on the way out. Light pressure on the handlebars causes the bike to lean one way or the other. Exactly the same on a bicycle of course-we tend to do it automatically.

I did not make a constant habit of mini wheelies in corners anyway and my present 'bike has not got enough torque to do things like that. It was a very interesting discovery at the time though on the A303.

It was also interesting at Mallory Park to steer the car round Gerard's Bend when set up in the corner by use of the throttle as you say SB.

Les :wonder:

Apart from your display of very poor manners, you are quite wrong!

Les

I'm occasionally not quite as polite as Les-would you like to explain why its impossible and also explain your motorbike experience, or are you just talking poo because you have no understanding or ability to control such a vehicle:wonder:
cheers richie
(ps you may want to explore Leslie's motorsport background on both cars and bikes before making a cock of yourself a second or third time)

Not trying to antagonise the thread but can you list you bike experience please-otherwise your comment is about as valid as a 12yr old comenting on how to drive a 911 based on what he's seen on top gear or read in a certain mr J.C.'s opinon that it will kill you if you so much as look at the throttle or brakes midbend.
cheers Richie

I won multiple club championships in the early and mid 90's. 70 wins in one year in one of them. I never quite managed a full on British championship but i won quite a few individual races. Between 96-99 i raced internationally all round europe. Again never won a international championship but won quite a few races at places like Assen, Spa, Zandvoort, Zolder etc. I have raced against and beat quite a few well known names such as Chris Walker, John Mcguiness, Michael Rutter.

I'm a qualified race school instructor, I have instructed on the European superbike school, Ron Haslams school at Donnington, and the suzuki school at Mallory park.

I hope that's enough for you? I will accept your apology for calling me a cock. If you want proof i will PM you it by the way.

Les's statement thayt he can pull wheelies while well leant over is bollocks. To pull a wheelie you have to twist the throttle quite hard or / and use a bit of clutch, neither which you can do 'well leant over'. When people say well leant over they generally mean mid corner i.e when you are on a trailing throttle or possibly just applying the power.

Of course, when exiting and straightening you are harder on the gas then it's eminently possible but you are not well leant over then are you?

You show me a picture of a moto GP bike well leant over mid corner while aviating the front and i will donate £100 to riders for health (which is Moto GP's adopted charity). I suggest you start looking in the days 2 or 3 years ago before anti wheelie and traction control was prevalent.

And by well leant over i am not talking 10 or 20 degrees from tthe vertical, as fairly obviously you can be hard on the gas then.

I'm away later this morning for a week to somewhere that does not have internet access. I look forward to your response.:)

Ha ha ... i've been looking forward to Mark's response (know from other 'boards' about his bike racing experience) ... made a couple of people look a bit daft :lol: ... as for "making a cock of yourself ..." it just goes to show what happens when you make assumptions ...

Some very astute opinions on this thread :)

Same here, i was following a copper up a really steep hill in my 1.0 nova when i was 17, he stopped me at the top and told me i was speeding, i tried to complain as he was a right bellend, but got nowhere, so i accepted it and moved on.

1 copper, no speed detection equipment, looking in his rear view mirror to judge my speed.
Pathetic really, but what do you expect from the force nowadays?

and your point is?

He was called out on his experience and why he felt qualified to comment on bike stuff. His point was to address that call out. I don't understand your problem with it?

Well it looks like Primark has got a good bit of experience on 'bikes as in fact I have. That does not actually prove anything either from his or my point of view.

I was not trying to claim anything special in the first place but merely to say that a full wheelie is not dangerous if done sensibly but I also said that it is not the right place to do one on the public roads. They are a bit of fun on an old runway or similar.

I said that the coppers are pretty hot on them and will have you instantly if they catch you at it. I mentioned a friend who was done for being seen to lift the front wheel about 3-6 inches accidentally when accelerating out of a roundabout because there was a small uphill bit on the way out. That was unreasonable by the copper. Only too easy to do on a modern bike.

I related my experience while leaving a roundabout on a very torquey bike. I remember what happened very well, the bike was still well banked and the front wheel did leave the ground by a small amount, maybe the same as the previous bloke. The road was clear so I continued and completed the bend like that and allowed the wheel back on the ground when I changed up. It really was not difficult or alarming in any way. It happened from time to time subsequently and I used to think nothing of it. It was not necessary to drop the clutch to do it either. The whole thing could be done very smoothly.

Maybe it was a peculiarity of that particular 'bike as far as engine torque and weight distribution was concerned. It was the only bike I had that did it, even the ZX12R I had later wouldn't. Probably a different power curve on the engine and it had a very low CG.

There is no reason that I would have mentioned it unless it actually happened. I certainly did not expect an immature and ill mannered post from such as Pimark in return. It was the sort of post which shows yourself up and also negates any argument you might think you have. If you don't agree, or want further explanation, you only have to ask in a polite manner surely? What are you trying to prove otherwise?

I can't tell you the number of degrees the 'bike was leant over, but it was a great deal more than 10-20 since I was well established in the corner and I was powering it out to stay with the group I was riding with to Thruxton. On a good piece of dry tarmac with a modern rear tyre and the torque to suit there is no reason to say that it is not possible. Why not try it yourself?

I will also be away from a computer this Christmas as well so maybe we will see a reply from you after that.

In the meantime, let me wish all on SN a very happy Christmas including you and the English Teacher!



Les :)

i was being ironic off course --- maybe I should have put a :D or a :Suspiciou or even a :razz:

but hey ho, i don't use them as a rule

Smilie fail then? :D

Yup, that is about as off course as irony gets. :)

Well said, p1mark. I'm sure ritchieh will rush back with an apology. :freak3:

As an ex-bike racer though I did actually win many races by lifting the front wheel under power exiting the last corner before the flag. It was a fine line between getting the power down first or stacking it though. The only difference is I was on dirt and my leg was often at the ready. :D

Nice record-:notworthy
That'll teach me to bite whilst tired and miss the well leant over bit-.I still maintain its possible on a big torquey bike which will lift the front on the throttle as long as you are not trying to keep the front down by putting weight over it-not at max lean mid corner as you say but about 30 degrees on a corner exit.
Pic I had in mind is the one of Mick Doohan(not your ave rider fair enough) on one wheel opposite lock drifting the rear whilst looking over his shoulder-damned if I can find it tho :D.
BTW the cock comment was more to do with the way you put your point across but hey ho this is the internet after all and different people read the same post and interpret it in different ways.
Apology offered-up to you if you accept it.
cheers Richie

See above-BTW theres no t in richie HTH.
Sorry to prove you wrong but i was brought up to apologise when I'm proven wrong(or even slightly hasty in my reading of the thread) as I'm sure were you.
cheers richie

yes - and grammer fail too:cry:

luckily no ones perfect on the internet, especially keyboard warriors like me:eek:

i real life though - different story, that's what tell the wife anyway

Can you point me to where I'm wrong about saying you'll rush back with an apology? From where I sit it appears you did just that and so if I'm not mistaken, it proves me correct.

Don't tell me in your haste (again) you've assumed the worst?

Oh and just to add. I didn't think the extra 'r' in your name would be a concern to someone who couldn't capitalise or space it correctly in the first place. :thumb: HTH

Sorry but the way I understood it the wonky eyed smiley is some kind of sarcastic gesture-feel free to explain it if its not.
Actually if you read my post you would see that I said theres no t in richieh not an extra r:brickwall (genuine apologies if you are dislexic or cant spell by the way) and as its an internet name(or nickname if you like) not my real name I dont feel it deserves capitalisation.
cheers Richard(see, real name with caps just for you :D)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by richieh

BTW the cock comment was more to do with the way you put your point across but hey ho this is the internet after all and different people read the same post and interpret it in different ways.

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No problem Rich, apology accepted – cheers fella.
I actually meant to put the original point across in a ‘playful’ manner as opposed to being an outright c*ck, but as you say we all read things different. I have no problems with being called a c*ck though, I responded simply because you asked for relevant experience.

Maybe Les should not be quite as sensitive. If I don’t mind being called a c*ck, then surely he should be able to take being called the most boring poster / greatest motorcycle rider in the history of SN (particularly when posted with the relevant smilie) a little better than he has?

now apologies for the long post, but les has specifically asked some questions and made a few statements aimed at me which i think he wants me to answer.:lol1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

Well it looks like Primark has got a good bit of experience on 'bikes as in fact I have. That does not actually prove anything either from his or my point of view.

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I neither said nor intimated it did prove anything Les, I was asked for my experience and gave it - that’s all.
I have taken the controls of an aeroplane once before, but If I posted something pertaining to flying and you posted differently, people would quite rightly take your comments to be far more worthwhile than my own.

I’m assuming (please correct me if I’m wrong) that you have owned and ridden road bikes for many years, maybe even with the odd track day thrown in? If this is the case, I’m sorry, but I WILL have a far better understanding of exactly what is happening regarding the mechanics and attitude of a bike through the different stages of a corner, and the effect the rider has on this regarding his input with throttle control, body position, foot peg weighting etc..etc..

I’m not being funny, but I get paid for taking everyone from first time track guys to experienced racers (some who are quicker than I am to start with), around tracks, looking at their faults, advising and basically getting them to qo quicker without crashing. Some of this is lines etc. but a lot of it is body positioning and throttle control and application etc. I have done this for over 10 years and I am one of only about 50 qualified / certificated racing school instructors in the country. I also on occasion do this with full data logging facilities so I can actually see when, where, and why myself or my punters are wheeleing, spinning up, etc. The data logging includes throttle positioning, difference in wheel speeds, fork extension, lean sensors, and GPS for track positioning. I have never seen a wheelie while ‘well leant over’.

PMSL at ‘Primark’. I can only assume it’s a typo unless you have had a bit of a humour injection over xmas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

I was not trying to claim anything special in the first place

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But pulling a wheelie (deliberately or by accident) while ‘well leant over’ is special! Or rather it is if you did not crash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

Maybe it was a peculiarity of that particular 'bike as far as engine torque and weight distribution was concerned. It was the only bike I had that did it, even the ZX12R I had later wouldn't. Probably a different power curve on the engine and it had a very low CG.

---

In my own experience, I have found the ZX12 to be far more wheelie prone than the old ZZR 11, and a quick google for the specs confirms it

http://www.zx11.info/zx11/specs.htm
http://www.zx11.info/zx12r/home.htm

The ZX12 is 23KG lighter, has a 55mm shorter wheelbase, has 24 NM more of torque delivered 1000 RPM earlier, and 31 PS more. All of these mean the ZX12 will wheelie a lot easier than a ZZR1100. C of G and more importantly front to rear weight bias will have a small affect as you say but I can’t find any listed. They would have to be massively front biased in favour of the ZX12 over the ZZR to overcome everything else though, and they are not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

I certainly did not expect an immature and ill mannered post from such as Pimark in return. It was the sort of post which shows yourself up and also negates any argument you might think you have.

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Please explain to me how me being ‘immature and ill mannered’ in my initial post negates any further argument i think I may have.

Am I a pikey clothing retailer or am I a circles circumference divided by diameter? :thumb:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

If you don't agree, or want further explanation, you only have to ask in a polite manner surely? What are you trying to prove otherwise?

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I’m not trying to prove anything other than the fact you are misguided if you really think you pulled a wheelie while ‘well leant over’. Whether I want to put it all “nicely nicely never offend anyone Leslie” or in a more abrupt or ‘jokey’ manner makes no difference to context of the question / response. If the term ‘you are talking bollocks’ offends you that much then TBH you need to get out a bit more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie

I can't tell you the number of degrees the 'bike was leant over, but it was a great deal more than 10-20 since I was well established in the corner and I was powering it out to stay with the group I was riding with to Thruxton. On a good piece of dry tarmac with a modern rear tyre and the torque to suit there is no reason to say that it is not possible. Why not try it yourself?

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A great deal more? So a great deal must mean 30-40 degrees then? How can you be well established in the corner when you are powering out? You are not well established, you are exiting.

Maybe we should try a different tact. What angle would you consider ‘well leant over’ to be? Please bear in mind that the ground clearance on a ZZR1100 is notoriously poor in the first place. Maybe we are at cross purposes in that your idea of well leant over may not be the same as mine? In my eyes well leant over would be in 2 scenarios a) mid corner, when you are on trailing throttle, max angle of dangle, up to and just past the apex. B) initial drive when you first start to apply throttle, it’s very quickly after this point you are going to straighten up.

At either of these points, the second you apply the throttle hard enough to aviate the front, you will not have the rear side grip and at best you will just spin out, and at worst highside. Anytime after these 2 points you are straightening up and then very quickly you are not ‘well leant over’.

There is a reason to say it’s not possible. A man called Newton wrote them many years ago.

Why not try it myself? Apart from the fact I don’t want to spend any more time in hospital than I have over the years you mean? Well, I have ridden bikes with maybe 60/70 PS ATW more, and with the associated torque hike more than a ZZR110, 50KG+ lighter, with a wheelbase massively less, on hot sticky slicks, on absolutely perfect tarmac. I would have been traveling a lot faster mid corner than you were, I would have had the power on a lot harder, and a lot earlier than you did, my bike would be far more prone to lifting at any given time than a lardy old ZZR, and I still did not wheelie while well lent over. So forgive me if I don’t really feel like going out and trying it.

Of course, these bikes wheelie at every given opportunity when you are hard on the power and exiting, whether you want them to or not, but that’s not well leant over.

Maybe on one of the days you pulled a wheelie while well leant over on the exit of a roundabout on the way to Thruxton, I was actually racing at Thruxton that day? going round corners fast, well leant over, knee and toe sliders smoking and perhaps pulling unwanted little wheelies as I exited corners. If on that day I happened to have won or podium’ed, I most probably would have hoisted a proper ‘un on the exit of the chicane and over the line.

his point is mate that hes top 8ollocks and kicks ass at what he does :D

Well i would not quite put it like that. To be be fair '99 was my last full season racing, and i'm kind of in semi retirement from the performance riding / race schools as i have not done one in a couple of years now.

and my post was a joke -- hence why I just quoted the extensive biking experience

jeeesh -- this is a tough gig

:lol1:

Don't know why you quoted me in that, i got the sarcasm when you first posted it.

in all fairness mate we all like a good wheelie but there is a time and a place for it and on a public highway in front of a traffic cop is not it! i know the road you mentioned in the first post you put on about this and even i know they are always playing on there in un-marked cars. its a sh1t fact of life that cops like nothing more than a boy racer (young lad),a biker showing off or a modified motor any of these due to bad press is guaranteed conviction and the smug b@stards love it!

sorry Mark, I thought you must have tbh

stay safe

Will do fella, i don't do wheelies in corners. :thumb:

Love it, you pop a little safe wheelie and get absolutely shafted.... Ashley Cole does 104 in a 50, doesn't bother turning up to court and gets 4points and a few hundred quid fine!!

This system is just ****ed up! I feel for ya fella lossing your license!