on apparently identical gearing. Big question is: will the turbocharged car waste that 0.7 secs advantage getting on boost? I don't think it will waste all of it.

definitely not ... modern turbo-charged engines are much better than that.

However, I'd still give the CSL the nod from 30-70 cos I doubt you'd want to do it all in 4th gear ;)

I wrote a cool performance simulator a while ago (it almost exactly predicts the various road-test results of things as varied as a McLaren F1, various Scoobs, various Evos and a motorbike). If I'm really really bored this afternoon I'll dust it off and have a play.

Ian.

Impreza 30-70 thru gears 4.2, M3 4.5 :p

Wouldn't mind a copy of that software if you were feeling generous. I use Car Test at the moment and it's not bad up to 100mph but seems to lose the plot (I think it doesn't do aerodynamics and transmission loss very well)

Standard M3 has been tested at 4.4 from 30-70 ... CSL should be able to match the Scooby easily.

Yeh, will mail it to you. It seems to do aerodynamics OK but my wheelspin model is very basic indeed (it assumes that the driver always stays on the limit of available traction through suitable clutch-feathering or judicious use of the throttle). The spreadie is designed to be used with a reliable at-the-wheels power curve ... there are gaps for some basic transmission loss calcs but I've never really had to develop this all that much.

Ian.

LOL

Cosworth, I tried to be tactful by asking you to maybe consider that some of the people on this thread actually know what they're talking about, but you seem completely closed minded to anything anyone says apart from "M3's are better than Skylines". Which is a shame as you are unlikely to ever learn anything with that mentality.

I can tell you that in my 13 years of vehicle dynamics, ride and handling test / development driving, competition driving, driver training, demo driving, successful world record attempts, I have realised that having an open mind is one of the most important things you can have when discussing this kind of thing.

I have driven approximately 20 - 25 M3's of all sizes, shapes and power outputs, and probably around 15 - 20 Skylines.. both in a mixture of road, circuit, pave, wet handling, dry handling, conditions, and can tell you without question, that the skyline is quicker in almost all circumstances. Not all, but almost all. I cannot think of a circuit where a top of the line skyline, would be beaten by a top of the line M3.

I would personally derive slightly more fun from driving an M3 round a circuit, purely because I am not keen on the active trickery in the clever skylines. But that doesn't make them faster. Might feel a lot faster though.

Now, the other thing to consider is the driver. There is nothing to say that a M3 isn't miles faster than a Skyline in YOUR hands. It may be that your driving style suits the M3 better than the skyline.

Just relax a bit and try to accept that you MAY just be wrong :)

All the best

Simon

I think ur flogging a dead horse with this one Simon :D
Makes fantastic reading on a wet Saturday though :)

Cem
An excellent comparison of the 2 cars.

I don't let the image thing effect my choice of car, I will buy a particular car for what it offers and how much fun it will be to drive.

The M3's engine tune is pretty much at it's limit in standard tune, whereas the Skyline is like starting with a blank tapestry, they have a lot of tuning potential and very few remain as standard.

I currently have an E46 M3 SMG and love it to bits.
One day I hope to have another Skyline, probably R34GTR

Ok - did this. Car pulled effortlessly from 1200rpm. What's next?

I'm guessing you should do the sam in an M3 and see the difference. I suspect there won't be much of one ;)

Strange that ... all the track driving in the world still doesn't change the fact that a stock GT-R has less flexible power delivery than an M3 for road use.

No one asked what lap times you got with your r1ce rocket. No one even compared the 2 cars in standard form on the race track (I know I didn't).

Way to shoot your mouth off over something that hasnt been debated.

Then you woke up to take your medication. Go add some more porn sites to your bookmarks, nerd boy.

And there goes the last vestige of respect anyone had for Cosworth427...

What, you mean he had any?

Cem

I was thinking that lol :D

Right....it's "rude" and "pubtalk" when someone like me lays down the facts between NA and turboengines, but it's perfectly acceptable for someone to claim a Skyline can pull from 1200 RPM in 5th "effortlessly."

I just LOVE the double-standards in this message board, keep it up, it only justifies my "rude pub talk" when I flame. I really don't care how many people here get upset, that's not my problem if you can't handle the information given to you.

I lost respect from the great wise collective from scoobynet bbs? This the internet, who cares about who thinks this about who? waa waaa

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Please go away.

You're boring.

In other words, you can't disprove my point about the M3's superior flexiblity of delivering it's torque and power over the Skyline - which I prefer in a performance car if I were to spend 40+ K of MY MONEY. Instead you will try to make a big drama about how nasty and mean I am and therefore avoiding the challenge of disproving my point.

I know what your follow up to this post will be, but I am simply not interested in what you *think*. Either prove that the M3 is less flexible than the Skyline GT-R or STFU.

I still say the current M3's gearing destroy's any flexibility advantage the engine may have. I have already PROVEN that the turbocharged, less powerful and worse PWR'd Impreza Spec C will KILL an M3 on flexibility for a given gear.

I like the current M3, I like GT-R's and I like Scoobies. In fact I like most things with an engine, but that doesn alter the fact that you're spouting bollocks laced with personal insults.

You have so far failed to PROVE anything AT ALL. Where are these comprehensive figures you keep mentioning and what is their source?

No you did not, you admitted those tests were done with boost building before the car was timed for each run. You think just because you posted something a few days ago that I won't remember?

You "liking" this and that is great to make you sound open-minded, but you are still a clueless twit when it comes to understanding engines and power delivery.

You already posted a source for the M3 (EVO??), you can't boost build on that car, it is a far more reliable set of results compared to that spec-c.

Are you the one or do we have 426 more from you?

It does't matter one bit about flexability. Take one R34 and one M3 and stick them on a real road. They will both prove very fast, but the R34 i would guess, will build a gap and keep building.
As far as going fast is concerned, i'm probably just an average driver, just like most of the population, so i would probably benefit from the tricks that the Skyline has.
The R34 would be my choice on the basis that it's rare and tuneable, whereas the M3 is common (like my Scoob :rolleyes: ) and sounds cack. Out of interest, do they sound any better with an induction kit?
To conclude - no one gives a fcuk about doing 30mph in 5th unless it's driving a Taxi :p

Oh dear.

Well I tried my best.

Guys, let me know what you want doing with this thread. It appears mr Cosworth is just not the debating type... more the loud mouth shouting type "shoud loud enough and what I'm saying will become true", etc.

Shall we lock the thread, Leave it, move it to fight club, move it to muppets, etc?

Cheers

Simon

Muppets would appear to be the most appropriate place for Ms Cosworth, IMHO :)

We should probably just ignore him. The thread has some good points in it, just none from Mr Cosworth. ;)

But just for the record:

Actually, it's a very fair test as both cars are driven the same way to obtain the figures, otherwise it would a pretty useless comparison. Or are EVO clueless twits when it comes to engines and power delivery?

In Uk Spec the Skyline would probably be beaten by the standard M3.
The skyline really is very tight on emissions as a UK car and very restricted.
But a pipe and induction kit sees 70ish hp no problem.
There arnt many cars that benefit from a stage one tune like the Skyline.
Just takes a few bucks to get good reliable power from one from that point.

Ok mr coz
Your M3 in standard form has a more flexible power delivery than a standard Skyline.Satisfied?
Now why dont you just go off and climb a hill in 5th gear somewhere out of reach from a skyline?

And they all lived happily ever after...

I never said a Skyline. I was referring to my car which despite being turbo'd does pull effortlessly from 1200rpm. This was to point out that turbo cars can and do have just as much low down power and flexibility than a similar power NA car.

i think cosworths point that he constantly gets at is true, maybe not by as big margins as made out but will be there.. but credit to him he is sort of slaggin off turbo cars performance and he drives one. if some of you guys could learn the weaknesses of your own cars it'd be a lot better..

Why thank you! I love the last point you made there. :D

Im suprised with all the cars on SN that an M3 driver and R34 driver havent tested this. Maybe something for the next track day. And please take a vid :)

Simon.