I wonder how much the price's will go up by to reflect the greater import pricing now that stock has been cleared. :wonder:

So Mark, as far as the MD321 is concerned, as a general rule of thumb then the below combos work best:-

H for 2.0L; non-AVCS heads

T/T+/V for 2.0L; AVCS heads (depending on bhp/lb ft goal)

T/T+/V for 2.5L (depending on bhp/lb ft goal)

Yes?

Been warned of that Dunc :( EVERYTHING'S going up. The £s so sh1te against pretty much every currency out there! :mad:

Joz,

Pretty much, although I still don't think a 500bhp 2.0lt makes a particularly good road car.

T for 2.0lt: non - AVCS heads wanting circa 450bhp.


I have supplied a V to someone with a 2.0lt VVT, and they were amazed at how drivable it is, but unfortunately, the cars abroad, and I don't have any specific numbers for it.

There's a V about to go onto a 2.1lt, that currently runs a T, so that will give a very good comparison.


Mark.

Will be interested to see those results Mark, will be nice to have something to compare my own T38 roller bearing equipped 2.1 with.
Just need the time to fit the bloody turbo now ! Lol.

Pretty much, although I still don't think a 500bhp 2.0lt makes a particularly good road car.

- Yeah, I suspect it's a bit of non-progressive "wait.. c'mon... huge surge" style delivery - not particularly conducive for stringing B-roads together, satisfyingly(?). Bet it gets the adrenaline pumping away though!


T for 2.0lt: non - AVCS heads wanting circa 450bhp.

- Sure.


There's a V about to go onto a 2.1lt, that currently runs a T, so that will give a very good comparison.

- Would be nice to here subjective before/after views, yes.

:)

The main problem in this thread is a lot of people are asking questions but a lot of the answers are coming back from the people who sell these turbos.

Not being rude to anyone here but if i sold the MD turbo's i would not be telling you to get an ST and the same would go if i sold the HS turbo's i would not tell you to buy a MD.

Nothing bad on you guys (the one's selling the turbo's) but your always going to sell your turbo and think that yours is the best.

People! Ask people who use these turbo's everyday on there day to day cars and have no affiliation with any of these suppliers as thats the only way you will get a true answer of how these turbo's may work for you.

I'm sure some of you may not agree with me but that is how i feel.

I think the suppliers choose which turbo’s to sell because they feel they are the best either in terms of vfm or outright performance - if they thought a MD was better they would sell the md

There are allot of arm chair engineers on snet who offer bad advice and with out these experts scoobynet would not be as good as it is – the fact they have such open conversations in public is only to our advantage

Rich

:thumb:

What about the T+ ?

Yeah, I'd like to know at what point this 'oddity' is required i.e. what litre/heads/bhp/lb ft, etc.?

Yes but at the end of the day they are only pushing there items.

What means it would be best to talk to someone who has used at least 2 of them and is not sponsored or gaining anything for there info for a fair out come.

Think about it? Number 1 guy sells the MD, 2 HS, 3 ST and they all say there turbo is the best so what is the out come for us the people looking to spend our hard earn money on one:wonder:

So who is going to buy 3 similar turbos off their own back and test and fit them out of curiosity ? No one. I have tried a few turbos (none of these though).

The owners on here giving their experiences are doing so out of good faith - but most havent seen all sides of the fence or are able to see what someone actually wants out of it. Some people think a bigger turbo is going to be laggy or unresponsive. I would bet money that no-one coming out of my car would say either hand on heart and I have the biggest of the 321's on there. Any of these would do a fantastic job I would bet - just seems an awful lot of people that have facts about the 321H doing the business for them to settle for second best on a major purchase and deep down wonder whether they had made the right decision.

The turbo sellers know more about what the strengths and weaknesses of their own offerings are compared to the others and from what I read above are mostly giving those opinions.

Duncan what would a V make on a straight v power?

Banny

A lot more than the OP is after tbh.

I'll be honest and admit that until i started this thread i always went along with the belief that a 321H was suited to a 2 Litre and a 321T was suited to a 2.5 Litre. Even if the only thing i've learnt from reading all the great advice from Harvey, Mark, Pat, Jase, Dunc etc is that a 321T will work on a 2 Litre with VVT then it's been worthwile.

I agree that most sellers are going to try to push they're own product but the wealth of knowledge that Scoobynet can freely give is truly superb.

Now the question. Would fitting a 321T to my car with the spec i currently have cause problems in the long term with say the clutch (still standard) or gearbox?? I'm not gonna be launching it from 5000 Rpm or dragging it, most of my fun is had on quiet B roads. Thats not to say it won't be taken to the occasional trackday, but that would very much be the exception to the norm as like i've said before it is a daily driver

Once my MD321H set-up was fitted my std STI clutch couldn't hold the torque, once removed it wasn't worn out, just overwhelmed.... no - LOL.

Now mapped, in top gear I can cruise at 80 mph and it's zero boost, by 3750 rpm all hell has broken loose and I have full boost (1.55 bar - ecu limited).

I can't wait to go for a forged 2.1, to wind it back up to 2 bar again !

imho it's worth every penny, but really needs a forged motor to do it's finest !

dunx

Boyd,

I honestly think you will love a T on a 2ltr. My FP green was a pretty cracking little turbo on my old 2ltr and the T was marginally better. Where the T was a lot better than the green was the mid rpm boost response. What i mean by that is say youre sitting cruising wih 0 boost and you just burry the throttle. The roller bearing T would make boost instantly, where as the green would do it almost instantly.

That almost, was noticeable between the 2 turbos.

My own opinion would be that if you really enjoy driving your car and are happy to use the revs then the T makes a cracking blower on a stock motor. people who say its laggy dont know what lag is... try driving a standard RS500 lol.

Id go down the T route if i had a stock STI again.

The key to a good car is the right balance of components. That point is quite often missed, and as Pat mentions, sometimes you do get unexpected results out of combinations that you know to work. More often than not, one component change can be enough to put you back on the right track though. In the last couple of weeks I've had 2 cars make an additional ~30hp just through induction changes, I've also seen an intercooler core change liberate an additional 35hp. These where all on mid 300bhp cars too.

I've seen my own car (2.0L) make more torque & power than a 2.5 AVCS equipped car on the same turbo at the same boost :cuckoo:

We've also had an FP Red bolt-on turbo out spool a ball bearing bolt-on by 700rpm and go on to make 80bhp more, double :cuckoo:

If there were only one solution to making xxxbhp then it would be a very un-entertaining world indeed!


Now regarding the 380 & 420 turbos, the former obviously flows less but is quite a bit cheaper to build. Spool between the 2 units is very similar, out on the road you would be hard pushed to tell the difference. Personally, I would pitch the 420 against the 321H. But remember a well set up 321H would spank a poorly set up ST420, and a well set up 420 would spank a 321H. It may sound obvious but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated :)

The 380 & 420 made 411 & 444 respectively - This was a back to back test on my car. Same dyno, mapper, mods, fuel Etc. Car is a built 2.0L STi5 with FMIC, manifold, SimTek Etc.

Fuel used was V-Power mixed with 6% Methanol. Because of the fuel and relatively extensive mods list I down scaled the 'ratings' on both turbos to reflect more real world results and expectations.


ST380
Attachment 50882

ST420
Attachment 50883

Note that the scaling differs between the 2 graphs, if you overlay them they are pretty much identical up to 5500rpm - after that the 420 takes over.

As always, your own millage may vary ;)


Jase.

Duncan dose it say Lateral Performance Ltd - Subaru Tuning Specialist anywhere on your car by anychance;)

I hope no one thinks im putting them down i just feel it's better to ask owners, im sure you can understand a little where im coming from.

P.s. i have had a T and think it is better on a 2.5, but maybe thats just my car iv excepeted that.

If anything Duncan was not in favour of the MD series initially... twas after trying one he has been saying how good they are.

I think if the truth be told, Duncan didnt like the price of the MD's compared to the others. lol :D

Yes it does say Lateral on the car - I am proud that it does.

What are you trying to say ?

Ran a md321t on my 2ltr only had forged rods and pistons and supporting mods and it was perfectly driveable with full 1.85 bar at 4400 ish couldnt beat it.

Ash,


It's "catch 22". Whatever information is posted, and by who ever, needs to be as accurate as possible. With the best will in the world, "owners" are often the ones who unintentionally give the misleading information !

And dare I say you're guilty of this, in this thread, I'm sure unintentionally, but to the point where Neil from Slowboy, who mapped both turbos for you, posted an explanation of your results, to give a more balanced view.

I don't doubt the ST/HS380 suited you better, but as I've said in this thread, I DON'T recommend the MD321T for a "non VVT" 2.0lt, unless the owner is specifically wanting 450bhp !


I find for the best "unbiased" opinions on turbos, try asking the independent mappers, who don't sell parts, but have enormous experience mapping all types of cars, with all versions of turbos.


Mark.

Excellent point.

:idea: ...I can certainly think of 2 mappers that are likely to be as impartial as can be...

Yep agree with you there.

Sorry i did not take in to account you saying the T was not best for a car with out vvt but all the same i feel we agree on that point to.

Would like to see what the H would do on my car compared to the HS i have? Feel like sending me one:top:

Ash

Nothing Duncan im pulling your leg thats why there was a ;) at the end of it.

Bodski,

Are you me and I am you? :wonder:

Steve
:thumb:

Hope not M8 the girlfriend won't be happy :D