Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833280)
I answered the question, I said it's to annoy you.
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Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833271)
That's just the narrative you subscribe to not reality.
Jewish people were driven out of large parts of the Islamic world by pogroms in the 1940's, it's hardly surprising they formed militias in Palestine to secure themselves. Yes I acknowledge there were atrocities on both side - and that includes masacres of Jewish people, but as I understand it the Jewish state did not by default confiscate private land owned by Arabs unless absent. Do you know otherwise? You are the one saying they 'stole' land. Sure it was a pro-Turkish plan. Turkey ethnically cleansed it's half. Before the invasion Cyprus was minority Turkey. How do you square that with your support of the Palestinians? Military intervention (like Iraq). Re-settlement and ethnic bias (like Israel (allegedly)) You seem to think that stealing land for refugees is OK by that logic stealing things from Jewish refugees after ww2 was an acceptable thing to do ? Turkey never had half of cyprus and still does not and the Greek side comitted more than their fair share of crimes but ultimately the drama was started by greek nationalism that refused to aknowledge the rights of turkish cypriots. |
Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang
(Post 9833420)
Once again facts escape you the two arab pogroms took place many years after the formation of the zionist terrorist groups but you knew that already didn't you ?
You seem to think that stealing land for refugees is OK by that logic stealing things from Jewish refugees after ww2 was an acceptable thing to do ?
Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang
(Post 9833420)
Turkey never had half of cyprus and still does not and the Greek side comitted more than their fair share of crimes but ultimately the drama was started by greek nationalism that refused to aknowledge the rights of turkish cypriots.
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Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833451)
I think the refugees should not have left and should have secured their property. ?
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Originally Posted by hodgy0_2
(Post 9833547)
classic ploy of the oppressor -- blame the victims, used throughout history to justify mass murder, and used by you throughout this thread
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9832075)
These discussions are about principle, passion, history, theology and politics. Whilst I understand that Tony doesn't give way and that this gets on peoples' tits, it does the other side of the room no favours by resorting to ad homs. It's not my place to to judge, I know that, but your argument is, in my view, strong enough not to have to resort to insults. Tony is on the the thick end of a disproportionate amount of flack but always attacks the position and not the man. In my view that's worthy.
No one is forcing him to say what he does, he chooses to get on everyones tits, as you say. His defensiveness about certain things, such as his own background, give him away, especially when he attacks the background of others as a basis of an arguement. In fact, I don't even know what your post is on about! Your self confessed double standard, on another thread, when it comes to your friend means that your arguments defending him are meaningless. Asif |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9832274)
So do you think or feel that Ezekiel 40-47 is of little relevance to Zionists?
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Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833855)
Sorry James, but that is nonsense. Your friend attacked me personally
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833855)
especially when he attacks the background of others as a basis of an arguement.
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Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833858)
I don't know. Is that the bit Samuel L Jackson paraphrases in 'Pulp Fiction'? Sounds good.
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Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833869)
I think I called you silly once or something? I was wrong to do so I admit.
You attacked my arguments about defending Palestinians on the basis of "What business is it of yours about the Palestinians?", simply because I am not Palestinian. This is an example of where you attacked me and not my argument. In fact you have never attacked my argument AT ALL, because you only ever responded to any point I made with some spurious counter allegation about something irrelevant. I was very polite to you, argued in a reasonable way, and all I got was insults, ignorance, and accusations, such as being called a liar. Funnily enough, like below! I then chose to reciprocate at first, then to ignore you. And now here we are.
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833869)
That is a lie.
I am sure a quick trawl through your posts will unearth more examples. No one is forcing you to post what you do Tony, I personally have no problem at all if you dislike Muslims, Homosexuals, Non white people, disabled people, whatever. It does not bother me in the slightest. However, if you come on SN and air such an opinion, you do need to be prepared to explain yourself, give a reason for your opinion, be prepared to defend it (properly) and then either put up or shut up. People can agree to disagree you know? And then you move on. If you know this already, then you are a wind up merchant, if you don't know this already...well I don't know in that case. I am not going to go back to debating with you Tony, but just to carry on ignoring you. This post is an exception, so you don't have to respond to this. If I sense your posting style change (not your opinions of course) then I will re engage with you. If you deteriorate, then I will do what I said at the beginning of this post. Asif |
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833908)
Tony, if you make me regret this post to you, I will resort to simply insulting you at every opportunity...
You attacked my arguments about defending Palestinians on the basis of "What business is it of yours about the Palestinians?", simply because I am not Palestinian. This is an example of where you attacked me and not my argument.
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833908)
Did you not ask Jimbob what business was it of his to criticise Zionism on Post #23? This thread is essentially about Zionism and your defence of it.
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Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833932)
It's a legitimate question. If you are going to claim solidarity with a people, a bias in favour of them, it is entirely fair to ask why. If you are Palestinian it would make sense.
Sure why not? Am I therefore not allowed to criticise Pakistani Muslims who are born and brought up in the UK, because I am one of them? It makes no sense. Am I not allowed to say, "Those starving Ethiopians are having a hard time", unless I am a starving Ethiopian? If background is what gives your argument legitimacy, you have been asked on numerous occasions about your background, but refuse to give any details. People ask, not because they are nosey, but because you put so much stall into others' backgrounds, but are so coy about your own. It is clear to me that you feel revealing your own background will undermine all your arguments. I suggest to you therefore, if your arguments are so weak and fragile that they will fall down once you reveal a bit more about yourself, that perhaps you change the subject a tad? It won't do you any harm. Asif |
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833932)
It's a legitimate question. If you are going to claim solidarity with a people, a bias in favour of them, it is entirely fair to ask why. If you are Palestinian it would make sense.
If you are not (and I personally couldn't care) then you have an opinion about a subject being discussed, just as others have theirs and surely then it shouldn't matter where they are from either. Btw, I am not picking on you. |
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833858)
I don't know. Is that the bit Samuel L Jackson paraphrases in 'Pulp Fiction'? Sounds good.
Third Temple? |
Originally Posted by Lisawrx
(Post 9833957)
Much the same as it is fair to ask the same of you and your defence of Israel, and seeming slating of Muslims, but you won't answer and claim 'bullying' when asked if you were Jewish.
If you are not (and I personally couldn't care) then you have an opinion about a subject being discussed, just as others have theirs and surely then it shouldn't matter where they are from either. Btw, I am not picking on you. |
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9833932)
It's a legitimate question. If you are going to claim solidarity with a people, a bias in favour of them, it is entirely fair to ask why. If you are Palestinian it would make sense.
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Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9833972)
I just find it odd that you don't recognise the overwhelming religious issue in play, even Boney M did a turn on the subject.
Third Temple? Are you referring to this? http://endtimepilgrim.org/thirdtemple.htm Definitely gives creedence to my previous point. Quite frightening in fact. PS. I did receive a copy of Night Flight To Venus for my 10th birthday, but didn't spot any subversive Zionism on there! :lol1: |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9833976)
It's well framed, it's rational.......good luck, Tony. :lol1:
I may not be the best (by a long shot) at wording things, but my point stands. By his reasoning..... he is either Jewish and 'it would make sense', or he's not, then 'what business is it of his' (as was said to Asif). I think here F1 has summed it up. You can have a go at me all you like, I have far greater worries right now than what someone I don't even know thinks of me, based upon the way I put a point across. |
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
(Post 9833855)
Your self confessed double standard, on another thread, when it comes to your friend means that your arguments defending him are meaningless.
Asif 'by the river of Babylon......when we remember Ziiiiion'. Psalm 136:1, pop charts no.1:1978. |
Originally Posted by Lisawrx
(Post 9833986)
And you have the nerve to complain about people making personal attacks.
I may not be the best (by a long shot) at wording things, but my point stands. By his reasoning..... he is either Jewish and 'it would make sense', or he's not, then 'what business is it of his' (as was said to Asif) |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9833989)
Simmer down, I'm agreeing with you. After a sterling effort Tony's trapped himself.
I just know I don't have the way with words that some people do, and thought you were mocking. :( Sorry. |
Originally Posted by Lisawrx
(Post 9833991)
I do apologise. :o
I just know I don't have the way with words that some people do, and thought you were mocking. :( Sorry. |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9833993)
Don't worry, it's cool, I can see how it may have read like that.
I am a very sensitive soul. :o |
Originally Posted by Lisawrx
(Post 9833957)
Much the same as it is fair to ask the same of you and your defence of Israel, and seeming slating of Muslims, but you won't answer and claim 'bullying' when asked if you were Jewish.
If you are not (and I personally couldn't care) then you have an opinion about a subject being discussed, just as others have theirs and surely then it shouldn't matter where they are from either. Btw, I am not picking on you. I've said before my ethnicity/religion is irrelevant, it has been used to attack me personally instead of my arguments in a sinister racist way. We have posters here who claim to share solidarity with the Palestinians based on a shared religion (even though the Palestinians are not exclusively of that religion), by extension in is claimed that members of that religion living 1000's of miles away are victims by association and justified to take action. There is plenty of injustice in this world but the Palestinians seem to get more than their fare share of 'solidarity' - or at least people adopting their cause, western liberals and lefties, plus many from a particular religion and the extremists etc - and deciding what exactly the Palestinians must want and what injustices they have endured, if you like making the Palestinians their clients. It's a question worth asking, and if these people were also Palestinians then you could argue that it is filial loyalty making them march on the street - there is some logic there, it's a solidarity based on something 'real'....religion is also but it is weaker IMHO and most of it is fake, you have British born people of Pakistani origin with the tube bombings who seemed to consider themselves victims because of what the Palestinians may or may not endure. It makes no sense from any critical POV. Whilst Israel remains a pretext/justification for members of a particular religion/political movement to want to attack my country, endanger my life and want to take my freedoms etc then the Israel-Palestinian conflict is my business and it is reasonable for me to want to take an interest. As that pretext is by an large fake IMHO...a religious solidarity...then I will attack it and criticise it and by extension Israels enemies since these enemies are also my enemies. So for that reason I have solidarity with Israel. |
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9834003)
I'm more interested in the motivations and hypocrisy of Israels enemies and why they claim solidarity with the Palestinians.
I've said before my ethnicity/religion is irrelevant, it has been used to attack me personally instead of my arguments in a sinister racist way. We have posters here who claim to share solidarity with the Palestinians based on a shared religion (even though the Palestinians are not exclusively of that religion), by extension in is claimed that members of that religion living 1000's of miles away are victims by association and justified to take action. There is plenty of injustice in this world but the Palestinians seem to get more than their fare share of 'solidarity' - or at least people adopting their cause, western liberals and lefties, plus many from a particular religion and the extremists etc - and deciding what exactly the Palestinians must want and what injustices they have endured, if you like making the Palestinians their clients. It's a question worth asking, and if these people were also Palestinians then you could argue that it is filial loyalty making them march on the street - there is some logic there, it's a solidarity based on something 'real'....religion is also but it is weaker IMHO and most of it is fake, you have British born people of Pakistani origin with the tube bombings who seemed to consider themselves victims because of what the Palestinians may or may not endure. It makes no sense from any critical POV. Whilst Israel remains a pretext/justification for members of a particular religion/political movement to want to attack my country, endanger my life and want to take my freedoms etc then the Israel-Palestinian conflict is my business and it is reasonable for me to want to take an interest. As that pretext is by an large fake IMHO...a religious solidarity...then I will attack it and criticise it and by extension Israels enemies since these enemies are also my enemies. So for that reason I have solidarity with Israel. That is why I think people are interested in yout ethinicity/religion as they are looking for a reason as to why you are so pro West/Israel and anti Islam and the role of a 'typical Jew' would fit that nicely... that is a figure of speech not an attack btw. I would take issue with this:
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9834003)
I've said before my ethnicity/religion is irrelevant, it has been used to attack me personally instead of my arguments in a sinister racist way.
I would implore you to try and be more neutral and look at how your posts come across to many people on this board as it is quite unpleasant sometimes. I promise you I am not alone in this viewpoint. |
Good post.
Originally Posted by tony de wonderful
(Post 9834003)
I'm more interested in the motivations and hypocrisy of Israels enemies and why they claim solidarity with the Palestinians.
I've said before my ethnicity/religion is irrelevant, it has been used to attack me personally instead of my arguments in a sinister racist way. We have posters here who claim to share solidarity with the Palestinians based on a shared religion (even though the Palestinians are not exclusively of that religion), by extension in is claimed that members of that religion living 1000's of miles away are victims by association and justified to take action. There is plenty of injustice in this world but the Palestinians seem to get more than their fare share of 'solidarity' - or at least people adopting their cause, western liberals and lefties, plus many from a particular religion and the extremists etc - and deciding what exactly the Palestinians must want and what injustices they have endured, if you like making the Palestinians their clients. It's a question worth asking, and if these people were also Palestinians then you could argue that it is filial loyalty making them march on the street - there is some logic there, it's a solidarity based on something 'real'....religion is also but it is weaker IMHO and most of it is fake, you have British born people of Pakistani origin with the tube bombings who seemed to consider themselves victims because of what the Palestinians may or may not endure. It makes no sense from any critical POV. Whilst Israel remains a pretext/justification for members of a particular religion/political movement to want to attack my country, endanger my life and want to take my freedoms etc then the Israel-Palestinian conflict is my business and it is reasonable for me to want to take an interest. As that pretext is by an large fake IMHO...a religious solidarity...then I will attack it and criticise it and by extension Israels enemies since these enemies are also my enemies. So for that reason I have solidarity with Israel. |
I'm on the side of the Palestinians and I have no religion at all. Neither do I have any racial affinity with them. :)
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Originally Posted by Bubba po
(Post 9834283)
I'm on the side of the Palestinians and I have no religion at all. Neither do I have any racial affinity with them. :)
There needs to be a distinction made between solidarity with the proletariat and a criticism of the forces who use their plight to usher in a much broader relgio-political agenda. Much of which Tony has countered is the narrative of these forces. |
I have solidarity with any opressed people, it just so happens that Palestinians feature highly becuase the shocking crimes committed against the palestinian people by Israel and is supporters has a knock on effect all over the world including the UK. Years of UK American and Russian support for Israels crimes has helped create a definate divide between the Islamic and christian world that helps those who gain self importance from terrorism find easy reccruits. From a point of view of a paelstinian who has had their own children wife or relatives murdered by the IDF why would they not support terrorism against the west ? Western leaders support Israel in their treatment of Palestinians as a sub human species with no right to life land or freedom and we support those leaders.
If an Arab nation acted they way Israel do we would probably find an excuse to invade yet we don't make the slightest effort to curb their excess', A simple round of economic sanctions and an arms embargo against Israel may get their attention and even stop terrorist attacks from being targeted at the UK. Frankly the fact that we trade with Israel is a joke. |
Originally Posted by JTaylor
(Post 9834327)
Which I get and believe and feel is a noble position, but understand that you are in the company, overwhelmingly, of Islamic theocrats and anti-Semites.
If anyone behaved like this I would find it abhorrent. I against Judaism in the same way I am against Christianity or Islam, but I am in no way against Jews, Christians or Muslims. There is a very important difference. Geezer |
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