JoeyDeacon

If you have no intention of denying it then I would plead guilty by post (If you can) to give you some idea of the fine/points you can expect this lorry driver killed someone and only got a £300 fine and 8 points.

Just found this on

Duke of Hazards

Well I am glad to say that I didn;t hurt or kill anyone otherwise I don;t think I could live with myself and would definitly be expecting a lot worse punishment that that guy got.. although he does have to live with it! still deserves a sentence for that surely.
I guess I am lucky it came back careless and not dangerous driving as I believe this is a worse.
I have filled in a couple of online requests one from free advise and one for a solicitor to represent me (advise about it) so I can consider all my options, but currently think I shall just plead guilty by post.
I did lose control of my car, at the end of the day had I gone 30mph rather than 45mph it probably wouldn't have happened.
So it seems pointless pleading innocent, just whether I do it by post or in person with a solicitor.

Duke of Hazards

Oh dear.. I have received a Summons to appear at a Magistrates court for Driving without due care and attention.

Anyone know what the maximum points this offence can take?

Anyone know a good website to read up on?

Any help gratefully received!

Duke

JoeyDeacon

Might be worth getting yourself a decent solicitor??

Just what did you do exactly to get this and have you already given a statement to the police??

I take it you are a regular on this board but have selected another username to avoid embarisment?

Duke of Hazards

I have made a statement.

I lost control of my car and hit another vehicle.
It was wet and the road was slippery..
I don't feel I was going excessively fast or anything but obviously they do.
There was one witness, a guy I had previously overtook (not going to be on my side).

And yes I have changed my name! :-)

JoeyDeacon

Ah I think I know who you are as we spoke about this a while ago....

Did you have a solicitor present when you made your statement and if not did you say anything that could land you in it??

My brothers friend lost control of his MR2 on a bend in the wet a few years ago and hit a mini coming the other way, braking the drivers leg. He had to go to court too and was banned for 6 months (previously clean licence). Don't think he was prosecuted for driving without Due care and attention though, think he was prosecuted for Dangerous Driving which may well be much more serious. Also the fact that he comes across as a bit of a lad probably didn't help much either.

Good luck!

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

The very worst that can happen is 9 points, £2500 fine and a ban. I reckon you'd be pretty unlucky to get all this though especially the full fine. I'm in pretty much the same situation at the moment

I think at the end of the day it is best just to plead guilty by post and see what happens. Unless there are any witness statements the only thing the majistrate will see is the statement of facts on your summons. If you go to court you may be asked questions which could make the thing sound worse. Send an appologetic letter also. They reckon that if you plead guilty rather than being found guilty after pleading innocent you get about a 1/3rd off the punnishment. Generally it is pretty hard to justify losing control of a vehicle on a normal road unless there was an obvious cause. The full name of the offence is driving without due care and attention to othr road users so the fact you bashed someone elses car is probably what sealed the prosecution.

Good luck

Duke of Hazards

No I didn't have a solicitor present when I made the statement but I had some good advise before making it. (obviously not good enough)
It was decided that by getting a solicitor involved at that stage I would be showing guilt etc... perhaps this was a mistake.

I don;t believe there was anything I said which I shouldn't have.
The driver of the car I hit was unhurt.
My main concern really is finding out what I could be facing... I was under the impression 3 to 6points but I could be wrong.

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

Joey is right dangerous or wreckless driving are much worse and can carry a prison sentance and will result in a criminal record. I think which one you are done for largely depends on what happens to the other person involved and breaking a leg is fairly serious.

Duke of Hazards

Boost II, I am wondering if that might be the way to go... take it on the chin and just plead guilty by post.
At least I wouldn't have to spend a day in court! but then I might get off if I have a good solicitor... ?
9points, 2500 and a 6month ban!
I don't want a ban, and my inusrance is expensive enough as it is... I'll pay £2500 and skip the rest though!
Have you plead guilty by post?

Dave T-S

quote
I lost control of my car and hit another vehicle.
It was wet and the road was slippery..
I don't feel I was going excessively fast or anything but obviously they do.
unquote

Well, your car isn't going to crash when it is parked in your garage so surely "they" are right.......


quote
and my inusrance is expensive enough as it is
unquote

Wait until next renewal!!!

What is the total cost of the accident including damage to your and the third party's car...


BTW - the answer to the points/fine etc question is in the Highway Code - I take it you haven't read it lately then.....

Duke of Hazards

Bit high and mighty Dave!

I presume you haven't made a mistake before?

I didn't realise they printed in the highway code book what points you can get for certain offences? only signs etc etc..

I have to admit I haven't read it since I helped out my sister in-law take her test last year.

Looks like as long as I get 6 or less points I can still insure the Scooby... sorry the roads are not safe yet (Dave I am joking!)

bros

Duke,

A couple of things to consider

1) You may well have legal protection on your insurance policy. I have, and they're paying the costs of engaging a solicitor.

2) Even if you are going to plead guilty,if you turn up at the court, you're making the effort to show that you're taking it seriously and are genuinely contrite. Your solicitor will be able to do a much better job of pleading mitigation that can ever be done by letter.

3) If you think you're not guily, for heaven's sake DON'T PLEAD GUILTY. This is something which is not cut and dried (unlike speeding, where you don't really have an option other than to take it on the chin), and if you have a good solicitor, you may be able get away with nothing at all. At the very least get good legal advice.

I'm up for a speeding offence next week - 99 on the M40. As I already have 6 points from another speeding offence, it's likely that unless I turn up and beg for mitigation, I'll get 6 points and thus lose my licence. Thing is, the letter of the law requires a 6-month ban on a totting-up offence, so I'm not going to leave it to chance and plead guilty by post.

Advice given to me by Andreas Serghis, a specialist motoring offences solicitor (contact him on 01273 626762) is that magistrates often don't know the law that well and reduce the sentence if you turn up with a brief, looking like you KNOW you're in bother and you're taking it REALLY seriously.

If I were a betting man, I'd suggest that if you plead guilty by post you'll get a ban (6-9 months), a large fine (£500-1000, dependent upon circumstances)but probably no points. With a solicitor you may be able to get off, or at the very least (if you plead guilty) get the shortest possible ban. I'd be totally amazed if you're found guilty but just get 6 points and a fine - I got this for doing 90 in a (dual carriageway) 50 zone, whic is way less serious than due care and attention.

It's worth taking the day off work to grovel for your licence, really it is!

Bros

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

I went for guilty by post. I felt I had some small grounds for getting off but didn't want to fork out the money for a solicitor given I was probably cluthing at straws. My accident did result in a road closure and a police investigation as well as writing off the Impreza. All the Statement of Facts said was that I lost control of my vehicle causing damage to a second vehicle - no mention of landing on the roof etc so i thought I'd keep as quiet as possible. The good news was that my insurance company have said that this will not effect my premiums significantly as it is my first fault accident. not sure about the points though - it will be 3 as a minimum.

Dave, driving without due care and attention is just that. A momentary lapse of concentration or judgement causing an accident. The CPS get all the evidence and decide what charges to bring. If the Duke was driving like a nutter to the point that he was asking for trouble he would be up for a more serious charge. Every accident is avoidable if you drive slowly enough or observantly enough but it is not realistic to round every corner assuming there could be a 10 foot hole in the road just out of sight or to pass every junction assuming that some nobber is going to pull out in front of you. Snooty git

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

I have to disagree with Bros on several points. Firstly this is a relatively minor offence and you have the legal right to plead guilty by post and this will not effect anything. In more serious cases you do not have this right so you may as well use it (if you think you are guilty of course)The magistrate will probaly have a whole pile of these things and all he wants to know is - do you plead guilty, do you have a clean license and how much do you earn. You cannot get an instant ban if you plead guilty by post, they will have to call you back in person to another hearing and then you will get a chance to put across any mitigation. I really don't know what the likely outcome is but IMHO a ban is very unlikely as is a fine any where near the top of the scale. The offence carries a level 4 fine and £2500 is just the maximum legally allowed for this bracket. Also if you do plead guilty a minimum of 3 points is certain.

[This message has been edited by Boost II (edited 26 April 2001).]

TRIGGER

Best thing seems to plead guilty by post but with a covering letter giving mitigating circumstances. This is what I was told be a solicitor mate previously. Assume you might get banned so make your reasons why you CANNOT lose yr car (work, kids etc), and say why you lost control. I was advised to say how I wasnt very used to the power of the car, and have since been on a driving course to learn how to drive it better. Also say you were in a hurry etc etc.

fast bloke

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TRIGGER:
<B> I was advised to say how I wasnt very used to the power of the car, and have since been on a driving course to learn how to drive it better. Also say you were in a hurry etc etc.[/quote]

Aaaargh!!!!! Don't ever tell a cop or court you where speeding/caused and accident because you where in a hurry. If you do it looks like you made the decision to go faster than you thought was safe. Go for power of car and driving course etc. (Even better if you can get on a course and have some cert. to prove you did it)

Duke of Hazards

Well I had only had the car 4 weeks and I didn't know the road.

Where did you get this Band 4 stuff from.. is there a guide for max and min points / fines somewhere? Dave mentioned Highway code? (snooty git)
I would guess it would be better to appear,
if I have a complaint to make it is easier by letter than either on the phone or to the persons face, therefore I would guess that they should be more easier on me if I attend.
I don;t have a shaved head and tattoos so I shouldn't make things worse. Not that there is anything wrong with a shaved head and tattoos it just doesn't help the image in this situation (disclaimer)

Duke of Hazards

When was/is your hearing Boost II?

what did you end up with... sounds like a very similar accident only I didn't roll.

Let us know how the Speeding case goes Bros and I might well ring the guy if he does good for you!

bros

Boost,

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that you have the right to plead guilty by post. Of course you have. Equally, you're right when you say that they can't ban you by post.

The point I'm making is that they may well throw the book at you if they haul you in at a later date.

I know this doesn't seem fair, but as I said, magistrates are not legally trained, and have amazing latitude in what they can give. Whilst they will have heard it all before, will essentially want to know how much you earn, whether you have a previous history of this etc, the fact is that they can be swayed far more than a proper judge. All they have to go on (other than the statement of facts) is your appearance and demeanour - unless you look like a kiddy-fiddler or have 'Kill the Pope' tattooed on your forehead, you can only help your cause by appearing.

Look at the other thread on this ('Nicked at 100 mph') - by rights, the guy should have been banned, if I remember the circumstances correctly. Attending court and having a brief meant that it never got that far, and that he walked out with more points, fewer pounds, but with a licence.

As I say, you may well have legal cover anyway (as a member of the AA/RAC, or with your insurance cover) so the cost of a brief wouldn't be that great. I've got an excess of £100 to pay, that's all.

If you're presenting a case that it really matters to you not to lose your licence, that you're a worthwhile member of the community, and that you're taking this really seriously, turning up in court will show the magistrates that you recognise the gravity of the situation. Without turning up they won't know you from Adam, and can make assumptions which wouldn't necessarily be favourable to your case.

It ain't right, but it's the way it goes. And since I really don't want to lose my licence, I'm prepared to give up a day's pay to make the best possible impression.

In exactly a week I'll know the result of my case, which I'll post on the board.

Bros

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

try having a look at this web site. I haven't had time to have a look myself but it may help.

Duke of Hazards

STI,

I had a quick look and found a couple of solicitors linked to it, but it is only really concerned with speeding... hence the name.
Cheers though

blubs

Duke,

If it's any help I was stopped and booked for careless driving in Oct 1996. It's a long winded story and I won't bore you with the details but it amounted to speeding whilst being followed for a couple of miles by an unmarked car, but with no actual camera type evidence.

I attended court and pleaded guilty and was awarded a £400 fine and 8 points on a previously clean licence.

I got a solicitor involved as the original offence was reckless driving so their help certainly meant a lesser punishment. They noticed a gaping hole in the original evidence and without that I may have thrown myself at the mercy of the court for reckless and ended up with a ban etc.

In that respect it was a good decision.

Hope it all goes well mate.

blubs

Dave T-S

Boosts quote:
Dave, driving without due care and attention is just that. A momentary lapse of concentration or judgement causing an accident. The CPS get all the evidence and decide what charges to bring. If the Duke was driving like a nutter to the point that he was asking for trouble he would be up for a more serious charge. Every accident is avoidable if you drive slowly enough or observantly enough but it is not realistic to round every corner assuming there could be a 10 foot hole in the road just out of sight or to pass every junction assuming that some nobber is going to pull out in front of you. Snooty git
Unquote

Duke's quotes:
Well I had only had the car 4 weeks and I didn't know the road.

Dave mentioned Highway code? (snooty git)
Unquote

Call me a snooty git if you wish....

Well, apart from the fact it could have been me, or my wife you smashed into......

You guys crack me up. Since you mention it I have a clean licence, no claims or accidents in 23 years driving (so it would appear, no, I do not make mistakes - that's because I do not overdrive the car in the first place) and yet my insurance premium went up 24% on renewal. That doesn't bother me, because I work in the industry and I understand it's the way it works - I am not complaining - the premiums of those that don't have claims go to pay the claims of those that do.

What cracks me up is when these threads are always guaranteed to turn to a moan about insurance premiums going up!! Of course they will!!

bros

Dave,

We're getting just a little off tangent here, but as you brought it up .....

Just because you've never had points or made a claim doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. My father-in-law is in the same position as you, except that he's never had a ticket in almost 50 years motoring.

That would be OK except for the fact that he's one of the worst drivers I've ever had the misfortune to sit next to. He seems unable to jusdge distances, his observation of the road ahead is appalling, and ability to control the car is questionable. I've witnessed him chugging onto roundabouts clearly unaware of the cars hurtling towards him and am amazed that he's not been hit.

But he drives at or below the legal limit, which makes him safer and mistake-free, right? Nnnope, not by a long way.

In general, I take your point about not pushing the car to its limits on the road, but please don't present yourself as some sort of perfect driving machine, unless you have a lot more to show than a clean licence and an absence of accidents.

Just to compare, I've been driving/riding for 18 years now, and have had precisely one speeding conviction so far, though clearly there's another one pending. No accidents in 7 years. Lots of advanced driving/riding training. And I freely admit that I make mistakes.

Bros

Dave T-S

bros
Fair point - and I probably wouldn't feel quite so strongly about it was it not for the fact that on the Cambridge meet last Sunday a Scoob and Evo6 got trashed in two separate incidents before they even got to the meet - thankfully drivers ok - (and no I am NOT criticising, just stating the facts).

navigator

i don't know if this helps but i do know a magistrate very well.here are some points i gleaned
1. magistrates are not legal people they are "volunteers".
2. they come from different backgrounds and have very different life experiences
3. the fines etc are given from a list from the lord chancellors office and then they interpret against it eg a fine could be £300 to a max of 2500. The magistrates will decide between them on the day and on advice of the clerk (who is legally trained) at what level to place the fine etc .
4. they do not like wasting time on long drawn out cases they are busy people they may have 10 or 20 cases in a day of which probably 15 will be put back for some reason.
so if you plead guilty that may gain brownie points with them.ie less of a fine etc.
if you are there in a suit all clean and tidy and plead guilty that too may gain some brownie points.Just being in the court.. and making sure they know ,shows concern, commitment to the legal process etc.
if you know when the case is due to come to court the clerk of the court may be able to help advise on the magistrates outcome before the case if you ask him. eg they had one like this last week or your bench is lead by mr jenkins who is hard on those that plead not guilty, or just ask him what the going rate tends to be for your offence then decide to send a letter etc.
good luck

huggy bear

there is something called a driver improvement scheme. apparently if you pay £150 to go on this course you dont get fined or any points.only saying what i read elsewhere,and that person was up for the same charge as you,look into it.

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

Dave - I was calling you snooty with tongue slightly in cheek Obviously you feel strongly about insurance whingers - fair enough. Scooby ownership is an expensive business though and it is natural to be concerned after an accident about the effect on premiums. Saving for a dream car for years and after only a couple of months wondering whether you'll ever be able to afford to drive one again is not nice. I know very well someone could have been hurt in my accident infact my friend and I escaped miraculously and the other car involved would not have wanted to be a few seconds ahead of where he was. The whole incident saddened me deeply and the effects will be with me for a long time indeed. Not to mention mourning the loss of the car which I would never have deliberately put in jeopardy - it still smelt of Waz Wizard lying on its roof! I really was caught out by a slippery patch on a bend which tightened much quicker than I expected and the way the car reacted once it broke traction.

Bros - I think your situation is a bit different. If you are expecting a ban and this really would effect your job and so on then I would guess it is very important to appear in court to put your defense across. I am basically just holding my hands up to say - yes, i made a mistake and I'm very sorry. I don't really have a dispute with any of the accusations that have been made. I think the simplest way to do this is by post.

Duke - I spoke to 2 solicitors who both recommended pleading guilty by post. The details of the fine etc came from a reference book one of them had. The same source basically said that losing control of a vehicle is one of the things that definately constitutes driving without due care and attention. If you want a technical defence I think it said something about a skid may or may not be grounds for driving without due care and attention ie a bit of a grey area. My hearing is not for a couple of weeks - the solicitors were reluctant to give any indication of what I might get other than a ban being unlikely. Perhaps this reflects the wide range of stuff dished out by different magistrates. I just have to wait and see, sounds like we should get something similar in theory.

nevr

[QUOTE]Originally posted by navigator:
[B]i don't know if this helps but i do know a magistrate very well.here are some points i gleaned
1. magistrates are not legal people they are "volunteers".

It depends where you areif it is a stipendary magistrate, then you have a legally trained person, if not then the magistrates rely on the Magistrates clerk who is legally trained. In some areas now instead of court they are offering a driver training course. Before you make a decision about pleading guilty or nor get all the evidence from the police, the Police have a duty under disclosure rules to provide everything. The advice about Insurance legal assistance is something to consider. If you intend to plead guilty you may still be required to attend court. Best of luck in the lottery of the lagal system