adam.pah

Hi Everyone.

I'm looking for some advice around using a methanol fuel map to add a bit of extra power for when I take the car on track.
I've done plenty of research but still have some unanswered questions. It's strange that I hear so many people talk about it but there is so little useful information available.
I'm using a Syvecs S6 ecu and am planning to install a flex fuel sensor to monitor if the octane level drops. My plan is simply to put the meth directly in the tank and have a map setting to run it effectively, this seems like the simplest/cheapest way of doing it as I can control it through the Toucan. I've heard of some people running duel tanks and pumps and although that sounds like a more scientific/efficient way to run the car, it also takes a lot more to get set up. Am I missing anything here?

Also, what other considerations should I make? I know that my injectors could be a limiting factor ( I believe my current Perrin 720's still have have some capacity) but is there anything else I need to know before going this route?
Where do people buy methanol from? is there a specific grade that I would need to buy? What's its shelf life? What sort of power increase should I expect and how much should I use?

Thanks in advance for the help people!

SmurfyBhoy

I chose Ethanol over Methanol

As it is less corrosive & less toxic

Does the same job but just not as effective due to less oxygen content

You will need a good bit of headroom in ur injectors & fuelling because they require more content to make the same power as Pump, Methanol requires even more than Ethanol for example if your injectors are maxxed on 30% Ethanol in the tank. They will only cope with around 15-20% ish of Methanol due the larger amount of fuel needed, but if they are close to maxxing on pump fuel you cant really use either Methanol or Ethanol to its full potential.

But the Octane/Ron rating is much higher so you can run more boost/timing

Meth injection at throttle body is amazing for intake temps but if tuning depends on it then if it fails your in trouble, you can use it just for temps tho & if it fails there is no big issue

Best of both worlds would be Ethanol in the tank with a Methanol injection kit that is used for intake temps so that you get the most from the map.

Big boy drag cars run 100% Methanol in the tank & due to how great it cools they can get away with no intercooler.

Americans get E85 at their pumps so that is 85% ethanol (less in winter) and allows them to have some really good performance.

If you have a flex fuel (Ethanol Content) sensor & good ecu you can have car tuned so that getting the blend right doesnt matter, you can fill with anything from E85 to V-Power and it adjusts map to suit.

If you do not have flex fuel and run a map set for E85 (85%) but got bkend wrong and filled with E20(20%) you are in trouble. So pretty important to get the blend correct to within at least a few %

I gained almost 20% power & torque going from V-Power to an E30 blend. I cant reccommend it enough. I used Bio-Ethanol from Ekofuel which is for fireplaces & was shown this from Andy @ AFP.

My 850cc's where on their limit at E30 close to 500bhp, over 450bhp.

Methanol is farr cheaper to buy especially right now due to Ethanol being Alchohol & all the hand sanatizing going on.

Methanol sub £1 per litre
Ethanol around £2.50-£3 per litre

As this replaces the fuel in tank look at it as

Methanol - Cheaper than V-Power

Ethanol - £1-£1.50 more expensive per litre.

Neither of them like to be left for long periods at a time in the tank as it will seperate.

Methanol is very corrosive & highly toxic. You dnt even want to get it on ur hands as ur skin absorbs it

Ethanol is just pure alchohol so in theory could drink it like moonshine & get away with it for a while hahaha

RAGGY DOO

iTrader: (1)

Due to fact we can only get 95 octane Ireland I went for ethanol aswell
one map two fuel tables and it blends between the two 20 percent ethanol
451 zero ethanol 420
i Made a ***** of pouring it out of the container into the Jerry can spilled some in the grass
no biggie the syvecs takes the reading from the fuel flex sensor and adjust the map accordingly
fool proof really can’t go wrong
no arsing about making sure you get every drop of ethanol in the tank
no worrying if the blend is bang on
sit in and drive

johno01

I used methanol in my old blob running syvecs and a sc46...without methanol it was 450 and with 20% methanol it made 480...it was £20 for 25 litres From a place called sidwills in Birkenhead. Definitely made a difference performance wise.

adam.pah

Thanks guys.
So it sounds like ethanol may be the way to go. This was recommended when I spoke to Enginetuner too.
I am thinking about getting this sensor (https://jti.uk.com/product/flex-fuel-sensor/) , any other recommendations?
Once the sensor is installed then the syvecs will adjust the fuel map, so I just have it mapped with the ethanol enriched fuel and away I go right?

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

Syvecs and flex fuel is a great combination, been running syvecs and using meths for years now without issue. Originally I had 4 maps each for v-power and 20% meths, but became
paranoid about the accuracy of petrol forecourt pump gauges, so installed the flex sensor for peace of mind

Bear in mind that if you want to run meths without issue for a long period of time you need to ensure that the rest of your fuel system is meth friendly, so suitable fuel lines, filters, fpr and injectors all need to able to run fuels other than straight pump petrol.

Kaosone

I think you should do both

lockheed

iTrader: (1)

As far as understood it methanol injection does nothing for cooling the charge and its a 50/50 mix of water /meth, water cools the charge and meth ups the octane.
Ill be pleased to be corrected.

rob84

iTrader: (5)

I've a set of ID850's top feeds if your looking for injectors BNIB

johno01

From mY experience it was a PITA putting 10 litres methanol with 40 litres of v power in the garage. If your racing and competing then yes but not in a weekend car or daily.

SmurfyBhoy

The amount of heat methanol sapps out of combustion is where it has its gains cars running full 100% methanol in their tank don't even need an intercooler due to the exception cooling capabilities of Meth.

Same applies with meth injection 100% meth is best

SmurfyBhoy

I would pour 10L of Ethnol into my VP-Race jug and just empty that in on the forecourt. Saves trying to squeeze each 1L bottle into the tank which can take a while & gets you some funny looks.

My car was only for weekend use at that point & i had a V-Power map to flash across when i wanted to run without it.

A daily i agree its alot of hassle and really quite a waste especiaslly with the increased fuel consumption and to use it just pottering to the shops with zero wide open throttle moments just seems silly to me.

Methanol will net more power than Ethanol & same concentration E20 vs M20 M20 will make more power but also use more fuel.

E20 is bad enough MPG
M20 would be even worse still

lockheed

iTrader: (1)

Wrong bud have look at the nasioc forum on water meth,
There is a meriad of info there by way of Richard from aquamist 100% meth injection is not the best mix 50/50 water meth is best for cooling charge temps and upping octane rating.
Go take a look.

SmurfyBhoy

The temp of the charge doesnt matter when using 100% meth as it draws so much temp out in the combustion process

Like i says. Guys running 100% Methanol as their only fuel do not even need to use an intercooler




Andy Forrests old motor for example

johnfelstead

I've run Methanol at 20% on a Syvecs S6 since 2014 without a Flex Fuel sensor, it's easy to do if you are sensible.
I tend not to use it now as i am using the car mostly for road, but if i am doing an event that allows it or a trackday i'll bang it in to help with extra det protection and power.

It needs mapping properly with separate ignition and fuel tables and depending on setup boost targets too.
I'm running up to 35% more fuel flow and 6 degrees more ignition advance in some of the load cell points with 20% meth compared to plain SUL.

Once i want to swap back to pure SUL i just carry a 10L can and run the car until it's out of fuel, bang that in and do a full fill at the nearest garage.
People over complicate things, it's no drama. Any tiny change in fuel compensation required from the dregs is so small as not to bother with, your closed loop fueling will make sure the correct lambda is hit so long as that's setup properly.

You can use a Flexfuel sensor and map blending of course if you want to, but that still needs a good set of maps to blend from for pure SUL and your Methanol mix.

I've used Jennychem for supply in past, it's 99.85% pure. You can buy Motorsport supplied Methanol at twice the price for the same grade.

If you store it correctly (air tight container) it wont age, Methanol absorbs a lot of water when left open to atmosphere, so it must be stored properly to maintain the purity.

My fuel setup is nothing special, 800cc injectors, Walbro 255 pump and stock everything else, that's good for 500BHP with 20% Methanol when maxed out. I would suggest you half the fuel filter life and fuel pump life, your syvecs/toucan will show you if the fuel flow rate starts to reduce in performance a bit as the injector duration climbs to compensate. You can set an alarm trigger point in the Syvecs and the Toucan at 95% injector duty and you will catch it well before its a problem. You can also set them up for lean on load protection.

It's always a good idea to do a datalog power run every so often just so you have a record of engine performance and fuel injector duty, when i was competing i would do that after every event, just find a spot you can use every time and give it a power run in 4th. You will be able to use those logs to look at changes in wastegate duty, injector flow, ignition, boost etc. You obviously see changes due to weather, but you will be able to spot anything suddenly changing, like a wastegate not sealing or an increase in fuel flow used before these develop into a problem. I've got logs going back 7 years.

Don't expect masses more power, i picked up about 4.5%, the big gain comes from torque, up 16% on my car at peak torque. These changes will vary depending on tune and engine build choices.