DON'T miss Top Gear this Sunday
24 October 2002, 10:44 AM
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I went to the filming yesterday.
RS Focus v WRX v Civic Type R
No guesses for which was the quickest on the track. The big surprise was that they described it as "dangerous" on anything other than a perfectly smooth road.
It should be a good show and the interview with Jay Kay is superb. He was chatting for nearly an hour and I really don't know what they will cut out as it was all great.
The RS Owners Club get some classic Clarkson abuse
RS Focus v WRX v Civic Type R
No guesses for which was the quickest on the track. The big surprise was that they described it as "dangerous" on anything other than a perfectly smooth road.
It should be a good show and the interview with Jay Kay is superb. He was chatting for nearly an hour and I really don't know what they will cut out as it was all great.
The RS Owners Club get some classic Clarkson abuse
24 October 2002, 11:05 AM
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All cars were standard.
I'm not revealing how much faster, but it was about what I would have expected.
I would guess that the margin lost on the road would be similar over a similar distance, from talking to JC. When we were chatting, he described it as terrifying to drive fast, away from the track.
I'm not revealing how much faster, but it was about what I would have expected.
I would guess that the margin lost on the road would be similar over a similar distance, from talking to JC. When we were chatting, he described it as terrifying to drive fast, away from the track.
24 October 2002, 11:14 AM
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Standard as far as you know ...
Re: the terrifying thing. That's actually quite worrying. If JC and other experienced drivers are calling it that, then there will be a lot of FRS's going into hedges etc when the average driver tries to drive it fast on the average british road.
...Re: the terrifying thing. That's actually quite worrying. If JC and other experienced drivers are calling it that, then there will be a lot of FRS's going into hedges etc when the average driver tries to drive it fast on the average british road.
24 October 2002, 11:35 AM
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Yea but is Clarkson really any good at driving and do we take everything he says as Gospel?
He's the only one who seems to bang on about hew terrifying it is all the time. I reckon he's gone soft with his new Merc SL etc...
He's the only one who seems to bang on about hew terrifying it is all the time. I reckon he's gone soft with his new Merc SL etc...
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24 October 2002, 11:39 AM
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Zoog.
The Evo mag team said the same thing, as did auto 'sponsored by ford' car(allegedly) albiet only in passing.
Not driven one, so can't possibly say if I think its 'frightning' or not. What I do know is that anyone coming from a FWD hot/warm hatch is going to be in for a big learning curve.
Not slating the FRS at all BTW. It's no doubt a stunning achievement and I would fully expect it to be quicker than a WRX(same power with less transmission loss etc); just concerned that a number of people will get one, read how much faster it is round a track with a professional race driver and expect to do the same thing on the road.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/24/2002 11:45:46 AM]
The Evo mag team said the same thing, as did auto 'sponsored by ford' car(allegedly) albiet only in passing.
Not driven one, so can't possibly say if I think its 'frightning' or not. What I do know is that anyone coming from a FWD hot/warm hatch is going to be in for a big learning curve.
Not slating the FRS at all BTW. It's no doubt a stunning achievement and I would fully expect it to be quicker than a WRX(same power with less transmission loss etc); just concerned that a number of people will get one, read how much faster it is round a track with a professional race driver and expect to do the same thing on the road.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/24/2002 11:45:46 AM]
24 October 2002, 11:44 AM
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Zoog,
Jay Kay said the very same thing and believe me, he can drive.
Neil,
What's the fascination with this "is it standard" business? It one fair and square, you gotta remember it (the RS) was going around quite a twisty track, in the dry against a lardy 4WD WRX
I don't think there will be that many accidents, from what Jay Kay, Clarkson and a few others have said the pull from the front wheels is that violent under power on a not so smooth road that you'd have to back off before you could get in danger. I haven't driven one my self but I'm sure you could drive around the problem and almost certainly sort it out with a few tweaks.
Jay Kay said the very same thing and believe me, he can drive.
Neil,
What's the fascination with this "is it standard" business? It one fair and square, you gotta remember it (the RS) was going around quite a twisty track, in the dry against a lardy 4WD WRX
I don't think there will be that many accidents, from what Jay Kay, Clarkson and a few others have said the pull from the front wheels is that violent under power on a not so smooth road that you'd have to back off before you could get in danger. I haven't driven one my self but I'm sure you could drive around the problem and almost certainly sort it out with a few tweaks.
24 October 2002, 01:56 PM
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Mo
Re Neil's fixation, the same occurred to me
Neil asked the same about the PPP STi7 that EVO tested - was it tweaked for the test?
The funny thing was, it was a development version, not the final production one, and due to minor improvements in the cat design the production version of the PPP is probably slightly better than the one EVO drove
How's that for confidence in the product then
Re Neil's fixation, the same occurred to me
Neil asked the same about the PPP STi7 that EVO tested - was it tweaked for the test?The funny thing was, it was a development version, not the final production one, and due to minor improvements in the cat design the production version of the PPP is probably slightly better than the one EVO drove
How's that for confidence in the product then
24 October 2002, 01:58 PM
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then there will be a lot of FRS's going into hedges etc when the average driver tries to drive it fast on the average british road.
24 October 2002, 02:05 PM
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Mo
Not obsession with the FRS being modifed, just a suspicion a number of people have voiced.
This excerpt is from a mail sent to me by an anonymous contact at prodrive, and it was talking about the STI PPP
I can't understand why people think there is a different spec of
package fitted to the Press car and the demo. It's not a TVR or a Focus RS!!!! ;-)
The pace of the car around track also surprised the RSOC folks, with it outpacing several 300Bhp+ Cossies. So it was'nt just me who smelt something fishy. It'll be interesting to put production versions on track and see how they go.
I also hear via the rumour mill that prodrive have been testing a focus RS around their test track. Apparently, only when its fitted with tons of top secret prodrive goodies can it beat an STI and EVO 7 to the same degree as was recorded on the autocar tests.
Dave,
We're not yet in optimum going through hedge season yet(though a few scoob owners have had a go
) so we'll see what happens by May.
Not obsession with the FRS being modifed, just a suspicion a number of people have voiced.
This excerpt is from a mail sent to me by an anonymous contact at prodrive, and it was talking about the STI PPP
I can't understand why people think there is a different spec of
package fitted to the Press car and the demo. It's not a TVR or a Focus RS!!!! ;-)
The pace of the car around track also surprised the RSOC folks, with it outpacing several 300Bhp+ Cossies. So it was'nt just me who smelt something fishy. It'll be interesting to put production versions on track and see how they go.
I also hear via the rumour mill that prodrive have been testing a focus RS around their test track. Apparently, only when its fitted with tons of top secret prodrive goodies can it beat an STI and EVO 7 to the same degree as was recorded on the autocar tests.
Dave,
We're not yet in optimum going through hedge season yet(though a few scoob owners have had a go
) so we'll see what happens by May.
24 October 2002, 02:09 PM
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Clearly none of the testers appreciate the effects of an LSD in a powerful front drive car.
Its a VERY different experience and by its nature of promoting torque transfer accross the axle will promote pretty viscious torque steer effects on anything but a smooth road.
Its hardly bloody rocket science, and the fact that allegedly knowledgeable drivers on the TV and in the mags don't appreciate that it is more or less a guaranteed side effect of trying to stuff loads of torque through the front wheels with an LSD doesn't fill me with much confidence in their "professional" opinions.
D
Its a VERY different experience and by its nature of promoting torque transfer accross the axle will promote pretty viscious torque steer effects on anything but a smooth road.
Its hardly bloody rocket science, and the fact that allegedly knowledgeable drivers on the TV and in the mags don't appreciate that it is more or less a guaranteed side effect of trying to stuff loads of torque through the front wheels with an LSD doesn't fill me with much confidence in their "professional" opinions.
D
24 October 2002, 02:11 PM
#21
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We're not yet in optimum going through hedge season yet(though a few scoob owners have had a go ) so we'll see what happens by May.
You know what an optimist I am - i'll give it about 3 weeks....
24 October 2002, 02:20 PM
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Neil,
I understand your issues but I don't think there's anything to substantiate any of it other than the usual comments rivals make when a new product is released.
Comparing the difference in times at different tracks is as bad as comparing RR figures between PS and PEA lot will depend on the type of track the test was completed on.
Beating the 300bhp cossies wont be difficult either, chassis design has moved on somewhat since the launch of the Sierra
I understand your issues but I don't think there's anything to substantiate any of it other than the usual comments rivals make when a new product is released.
Comparing the difference in times at different tracks is as bad as comparing RR figures between PS and PE
A lot will depend on the type of track the test was completed on.Beating the 300bhp cossies wont be difficult either, chassis design has moved on somewhat since the launch of the Sierra
24 October 2002, 02:22 PM
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Hi Pete, fun day wasnt it? Pity we couldnt have a bit of track time for ourselves!
Fair play to the RS chap with the RS200!
Heres hoping i dont look too much like a geek on camera - i should be the one sitting in the Noble when they do that bit.
BTW - The Stig is definately male. The short presenter chappy used the "he" pronoun off camera - got a look of JC who they referred to him as "it"...
Fair play to the RS chap with the RS200!
Heres hoping i dont look too much like a geek on camera - i should be the one sitting in the Noble when they do that bit.
BTW - The Stig is definately male. The short presenter chappy used the "he" pronoun off camera - got a look of JC who they referred to him as "it"...
24 October 2002, 02:40 PM
#25
Someones "terrifying" is anothers "boring" actually.
FWD and 220BHP is nothing special, F2 kit cars are pushing 300BHP through the front wheels, so are BTCC Super Tourers.
Making it drivable has a huge amount to do with the packaging and driveshaft configuration, that can have more efect than the LSD. You get torque steer generated because both front hubs dont see the same torque, it's pretty simple physics. Most production cars suffer from this because the driveshafts are not equal length, so you get more torque losses in one compared to the other.
This can be minimised by using an extension peice on one side of the diff so both driveshafts are the same length, however the efective length will be diferent unless the diff unit sits bang in the centre of the car in reference to left/right.
Does the Focus RS have this configuration? If not you will never remove the torque steer.
FWD and 220BHP is nothing special, F2 kit cars are pushing 300BHP through the front wheels, so are BTCC Super Tourers.
Making it drivable has a huge amount to do with the packaging and driveshaft configuration, that can have more efect than the LSD. You get torque steer generated because both front hubs dont see the same torque, it's pretty simple physics. Most production cars suffer from this because the driveshafts are not equal length, so you get more torque losses in one compared to the other.
This can be minimised by using an extension peice on one side of the diff so both driveshafts are the same length, however the efective length will be diferent unless the diff unit sits bang in the centre of the car in reference to left/right.
Does the Focus RS have this configuration? If not you will never remove the torque steer.
24 October 2002, 03:11 PM
#26
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Neil...
We are definetely well into 'hedge hopping season' up here if last night's sleet, snow and blankets of fallen leaves were anything to go by
PS Maybe these Toyos aren't really as good as I first thought
We are definetely well into 'hedge hopping season' up here if last night's sleet, snow and blankets of fallen leaves were anything to go by
PS Maybe these Toyos aren't really as good as I first thought
24 October 2002, 03:12 PM
#27
I rally an ex-works Nissan Sunny F2 with about 240 bhp through the front wheels , The box I run has a cross shaft with the drive shafts equal length , and it is a handfull to drive , they were even fitted with a viscous(sp) diff to make it drive nicer but if you aint holding on your off !!!!
If the Focus is like this then there will be a few ending up in scrapyards !
Ian
If the Focus is like this then there will be a few ending up in scrapyards !
Ian
24 October 2002, 04:56 PM
#28
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The comparison with F2 is very valid. In fact think back to the Maxis that dominated WRC tarmac events... right up to the point where it began to rain
In the dry they could take 20 seconds off a WRC car, in the wet they would lose a minute a stage.
I have driven a track, playing with an F2 Clio. 1600cc, full cage and stripped out, running on slicks. I was on Cups and it took everything I had just to keep up.
But give me a good country lane, with leaf strewn, dark, mysterious corners and I know what I would want to be in
In the dry they could take 20 seconds off a WRC car, in the wet they would lose a minute a stage.
I have driven a track, playing with an F2 Clio. 1600cc, full cage and stripped out, running on slicks. I was on Cups and it took everything I had just to keep up.
But give me a good country lane, with leaf strewn, dark, mysterious corners and I know what I would want to be in
24 October 2002, 05:09 PM
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Pete,
I've told you before m8 - you need to learn to drive, I hear Don Palmer is quite good
Also, you need to ditch that Fugley car you drive for the much nicer old shape Scoob
Matt
I have driven a track, playing with an F2 Clio. 1600cc, full cage and stripped out, running on slicks. I was on Cups and it took everything I had just to keep up.
Also, you need to ditch that Fugley car you drive for the much nicer old shape Scoob
Matt