Gridlock Mikey

From another thread.........

"Now that it is colder out there, are you STi7 boys worried"? Or something like that anyway.

Certainly I know that posts and statements like that used to set me wondering if my car was gonna blow up at any moment and it used to ruin my enjoyment of the car. When i fitted the Dawes to my car (When it was the flavour of the moment) I researched, did as much homework as I could, took the plunge, bought a boost gauge, fitted it myself and worried for about 3 weeks because i didn't have a AFR meter. 12 months on, I still don't have one, my DAWES has been on countless cars without boost gauges (Using fuel cut as the pointer)and do you know what, they are all fine!! I really couldn't care if my car was detting, running "slightly" lean/rich, if the MAF was on it's way out, or my charge temp was a milli degree out. I put my foot down, it goes well, sounds good, stops, idles, ticks over, starts, infact everything that it used to do when it was new, except quicker.

Don't tell me that i'm lucky and that it's only a matter of time before summat goes wrong. Even if it does, everyone will say it was MAF failiure anyway

I'm sure that every engine in the world has problems but sometimes i think that telling people that potentially their engine is more at risk because of an intangible is a bit cruel.
We are all adults and we can decide for ourselves i know, but as a SIDC regional organiser, i get calls from strangers (Number out of True Grip) asking me about Air filters, exhausts, wheels, etc and most of them confess to being a little apprehensive because of "something they read on scoobynet".

I don't know what can be done about it, but I know that I am not alone in getting a little tired of being called foolish or irresponsible because I don't do something to my car in a certain way.

I am quite happy to say on this BBS statements such as

"..Stick the Dawes on, Don't bother with a boost gauge, or AFR, or if your Gonna blow your engine up! Floor it in 4th or 5th, don't worry about the charge temperatures on Wide open or Part throttle, do it until you hit fuel cut and then turn it back half a turn. Leave it alone, and enjoy. Your engine is gonna be fine. It probably could be tuned slightly better but then, couldn't we all!"

"Your ITG filter will NOT knacker up your car if fitted correctly"

"The UK engine runs rich, you will however NEVER suffer from Bore wash"

"Accelerating harshly out of say a T junction when the engine is cold will NOT damage your engine. Bouncing off the rev limiter first thing will"

"You do not need to turn the inside of your scoob into something that looks like the flight deck of the enterprise to ensure that it runs ok. It is perfectly capable of looking after itself"

"As a percentage, the engines that do fail (As opposed to BLOW UP ) is tiny. I'm sure Vauxhall and Ford have more engines blow up than Subaru but as a percentage of unit out in the field, i bet the Boxer is FAR more reliable"

"If you start modifiying the Turbo, Intercooler, injectors etc, THEN you need to research and learn and NOT accept the first thing you are told. If you are replacing Hoses, Exhaust stages, wheels, Just do it. Your car will be fine"

"If you run your car on SUL and you have to put NUL in, It will NOT knacker your car up"

"SUL and octane booster will NOT knacker your car. In layman terms it will pop and bang more and any increase in performance will be TINY"

"Do not give a toss about advanced/retarded ignition, unless you have done something major to your car. There is Bugger all you can do about it unless you have a very indepth knowledge and the equipment, which lets face it, most of us haven't"

"Ask yourself this: Did you worry about anything like this when you had previous cars? Did they randomly blow up? They didn't so why should your Scoob?"

Enjoy the car, Trust it and with a little bit of common sense, you can actually drive in a spirited manner and your car WILL be fine. Treat it properly and it WILL be ok. Abuse it and it WILL break (Name me something that wont!) The line between the two is NOT a fine line, it's MASSIVE. Trust me, your scoob is FINE.

Just me or anyone else agree/disagree?

Mikey

madmacslemon

Hooray, might thoughts exactly.

john banks

Disagree.

It was my thread about overboost, and I mentioned STi 7 and overboost with decat systems since some of the aftermarket exhaust systems are causing spiking and detonation which is actually audible.

CrisPDuk

Well said that man

Editted to say agree with Mikey, not the immediate above

[Edited by CrisPDuk - 12/18/2002 12:37:00 PM]

Z_chromozone in london

just don't come crying.....

Merc_Cosworth

Erm - AFAIK, the only time you should be able to hear Det, is when the whole lot goes BANG.



[Edited by Merc_Cosworth - 12/18/2002 12:38:25 PM]

CraigH

And Shreddies keep hunger at bay

Disagree with a couple of things you've said though.

Merc_Cosworth

Now that is a myth.

Shreddies keep hunger locked up 'till lunch.

john banks

Erm, no actually.

A engine can det and it not be the end. Even a 2 litre turbo at 175 BHP/litre can det and it not be the end. Otherwise my engine would be totally stuffed by now!

However, if you are deaf or uninterested in detonation and fit boost controllers blind, then IMHO you are an idiot. Simple as that. Rarely am I so blunt. Just my 2p.

johnfelstead

oh dear.

Gridlock Mikey

John, (and you are by no means the only one, your thread just copped it thats all )

Since when has the man on the street given a to55 about spiking and det?

If i stood in a pub and asked 10 people to explain spiking in relation to a turbo charged engine, i'd be impressed if 2 people had a clue! Thats my point. We are laymen (most of us) and whilst your knowledge is well founded, it is a subject that is of interest to you, a hobby and a business. I think it's wrong to assume everone knows what you are describing when you make a discovery good or bad and certainly to imply that damage is being done to an engine because of an intangible (Electrical current, air flow, temperature in a certain part of the engine bay etc).

Why should he be forced to worry about something that he can do nothing about unless he spends money (Most of the time alot of it) on it?

Mikey Not for a moment undermining Johns Knowledge.

john banks

I guarantee that it is possible to setup a Dawes WITH FUEL CUT IN PLACE and blow up an engine. Set me to the task and I reckon I could ruin the engine in about 1 hour if I tried. Unbelievable crap is being spouted on this thread.

john banks

He is not forced to, but if he doesn't understand the basics he should not be tuning engines! You are suggesting that we all tune our highly strung engines and remain in ignorance like the bloke down the pub. Sorry that is totally lame!

Petrol-Head

Yep, totally agree !
Common sense will prevail !

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

I understand your point and agree that you can scare yourself silly about everything that you read about your scoob. This mainly comes down to a lack of understanding for most of us (me included). What do we all do? We post a question, then we get a reply from the more knoladgeable members of the board (such as John Banks who has posted on this thread). They give us the advice we require but being the responsible people they are also give us a warning of the possible effects of doing the mods in question. If that scares people then at least they are erring on the side of caution......

Merc_Cosworth

No - I wouldn't fit a boost controller blind. Neither would I allow an engine to run a dangerous mix of high compression/boost/combustion temps/charge temp/ignition advance without recourse to Det prevention.

But...

Everytime I've come across an engine that has suffered from Det, its been in peices.

I know that Det doesn't automatically mean death, but to be heard over all the other racket that goes on at WOT/full boost?

Or is it easier to hear with the boxer engine?

And yes, I'm as deaf as a post - motorbikes and clubs put paid to that.

To be honest - this argument about Det is another thread entirely.

[Edited by Merc_Cosworth - 12/18/2002 12:50:42 PM]

Gridlock Mikey

I don't possess race/rally team levels of money/equipment/personel, nor do most scoob owners so why try and behave like it?

a) You buy a car, drive it, sell it
b) You buy a car you modify it, drive it, sell it
c) You buy a car, modify it, develop an interest, learn more, apply it, drive it, sell it
d)You buy a car, modify it, develop an interest, learn more, apply it, drive it,like it, learn more, apply it, race it, drive it,really go for it, set up a race team, join a club oh and move on so, sell it.

There are other groups i know but most car owners fall into the top two catagories. IMHO some people are in catagory a but you'd think that they are in cat.d

Mikey

john banks

Certainly with a reasonably sensible (but good flowing) exhaust in a Subaru you can hear detonation in the cabin. I've only listened to and tuned Subarus, so not sure about other engines. Perhaps I couldn't hear a well insulated V6 det, or on the other hand it might be more obvious as it is so smooth. There are of course degrees of det, the loudest I heard was for a couple of seconds and a continuous drilling sound, and it was bloody loud. A lot of the time it is a small tinkle - whether these do significant damage is debated, but best not to have any det IMHO. But to map a car for optimum performance you have to expose it to some det. Some newer ECU continually run on the det threshold - when they work. Some are letting det through.

Mikey, one of the great things about the UK Subaru community is the advice and input you can get on tuning and the number of parts available. It is thankfully a bit more sophisticated than bunging a K&N and a big exhaust on it.

Pick your level of interest and modify (or not at all) accordingly. If you just want it to go fast then give it to a trusted specialist to tune if you are not interested in the pitfalls of tuning. If you tune without interest and knowledge then you expose the engine to more risk... and potentially yourself. I certainly don't want an engine failing on me in the middle of a corner or in the middle of a freezing, dark motorway. I also don't want the totally unnecessary expense of an engine rebuild.

For the sort of power that most people are wanting there is no reason to resort to second class ill-informed tuning.

IMHO, detonation is something to be totally paranoid about on a highly strung turbocharged engine. Why do you think turbo motors have a repuation for blowing up? It is because when they detonate badly they tend to do a good self destruct job.

[Edited by john banks - 12/18/2002 12:58:56 PM]

Gridlock Mikey

John,

You just called me an idiot

Another point confirmed.

My car is fine, never had a problem with it. I'm not saying that your methods are wrong, far from it, just that your methods are NOT vital.

Mikey

johnfelstead

Most Det you can't hear unless you have det cans on, thats why you have det cans!
But, some bad det you can hear.

Most scoobs will get away with badly setup engines because they are not that heavily loaded up, but when you start giving them a hard time on track or on a very fast sustained cross country blast, this same engine will melt itself.

You have to be one short of a six pack to tune any engine blind if you are going to push it and load it up. Tootle around town by all means, but you hold this WOT for any length of time and your being very stupid.

Merc_Cosworth

Which is what a knock sensor is for? If aftermarket ECUs/chips are running too close to the det threshold then it smacks of bad tuning.

To be honest - I'm am constantly amazed by people who proclaim themselves petrolheads, 'tune' their cars (usually by way of winding up the boost and ignition curve), and then moan when their wild boosting engine suddenly ceases to be reliable.

johnfelstead

dont think i will add more to this thread, because your logic is fundementally flawed mikey.

john banks

Mikey, the fact that you have not blown up an engine means that you have been lucky, or the statistics haven't caught up with you yet.

Did you realise that on a MY99/00 you can put a Dawes on and get to about 2 bar before fuel cut operates? Fuel cut is based on a timer, and is such an ill-advised way of setting up a boost controller that words like idiot I am afraid are applicable. Sorry to make it personal, but you are spouting utter crap in a public forum.

You might as well advocate abdominal surgery on the kitchen table as far as I am concerned. Yes it is a person and not an engine

john banks

Merc, the knock sensors have a nasty habit of not doing their jobs on Subarus, usually when they are tuned. I have seen as many Subarus with faults letting potentially serious detonation through unchecked as I have ones where the knock sensor/ECU is doing its job to stop it. That I find alarming.

If the knock control is exceptionally good, then you can run more ignition timing and leaner. If it is poor, then you cannot run on the edge safely.

Tuning an engine det free and exploring the limits is one thing. It is a calculated risk.

Tuning an engine with no regard to det is an uncalculated foolish risk, and the waste of an engine.

You are trading performance for reliability all the time especially once you take a Subaru much over +20% power. And the increased failure rate beyond there is not going to be linear either.

RICH WILD

To a certain extent I agree with both of you here.

I agree with John wholeheartedly but I think Mikey's point is valid.

I know of a chap running 1.7 bar in Legacy that's pretty much bog standard with a bleed valve and FCD. He loves it. I think he's a loon. But that's up to him. If he's prepared to take the risk that's his problem not mine. I would never however ADVISE someone to do this.

It's like smoking. Smoking causes cancer. The Mikey camp say "I've been smoking 40 years and I'm ok". The John camp say " but you'll die". Both are right. It's a personal choice at the end of the day.

BUT (and I think this is where I lean more towards John) that doesn't mean that you can walk around handing ciggys to 10 year olds saying, "get that down your neck, it's cool"

At the end of the day, we are all adults and it's up to us what we do, but when be start to ADVISE others that's when we have to be extra cautious (and seem like we are being wusses) because you don't want to be responsible for someone else's downfall for both legal and moral reasons.

You probably don't give a sh1te what I think, but there it is!

Cheers

Rich

Jza

Good thread Mikey!!!

You can stick onto your car whatever you want...

The only thing i'd question is the fact that SO FAR nothings gone wrong for you..... BUT what will you say if the car goes BANG... and your looking at up to say a £3k bill..... will you £20 Dawes device and "i don't give a f**k" attitude to modding help then... would your views change then??? Or could you afford it??? (lend us a tenner )

I look at the dark and mysterious world of modding as Opportunity Cost of it going BANG vs Benefit of extra BHP etc.

There's a thin line between the two for each individual... mainly dependant on the depth of their pockets!!!!

I can't afford to blow the engine... so went with the safe and boring warrenty friendly PPP option Vs reasonable performance gains.

If i could afford to RISK blowing the engine and paying to replace it, i'd have done as you had.

£££££££££££££££ CASH RULES EVERYTHING AROUND ME ££££££££££££££££



Jza

Gridlock Mikey

Cobblers!!!

There we go again, you are/have been lucky.

So i put a load of stuff in my car to tell me that the car is doing this that or the other, after i have spent god knows how many £'s on checking devices, it tells me the car is fine. I KNOW that already.

You and your knowledge John B (not F) have a place. It is for people who "heavily" modify thier cars and need that level of knowledge and expertise.

To force your knowledge on this (as you put it) bbs onto people who are not as "clever as you" is wrong. To state that the STi7 Dets because it is cold is wrong. Not the validity of the statement you understand but the delivery of it. Take Mr smith who took delivery of his STi7 this morning, he reads that and thinks what exactly?

Because I have used some tried and tested subjects to "prove" my point doesn't make me an idiot.

If everything you stated was absolute, then tell me why the hell would someone buy a scoob, it's gonna blow up according to you!, unless you monitor it to death and worry yourself about it all the time.

Mikey

Eric Chadwick

Why wouldn't you want to know the risks involved with something you do? Cranking up the boost in the blind hope that the ecu will call stop is perhaps a little ill advised. You are perfectly within your rights to take that risk of course but it is an expensive gamble.

Its up to you if more information makes you paranoid but this forum is a place where you can weigh up the pros and cons and learn from other peoples sucesses and failures. You just have to excercise judgement as to what is paranoia or hype and what is fact. I do agree that sometimes things do get a bit hyped but you just have too look past that. Many very knowledgable people post on this forum and it is to all our benefit.

Long may it remain so.

Edited to say - I totally agree with Rich. Well put.



[Edited by Eric Chadwick - 12/18/2002 1:32:09 PM]

Merc_Cosworth

I have to say that my tuning experience with Turbos is limited to Vauxhall 2.0 DOHC Turbos (c20let) and Ford Cosworths.

In either case both tend to suffer catostropic collapse as soon as Det occurs.

But I think you lot seem to victim of the Subaru phenomenon - suddenly they're the car to have, and an entire industry has sprung up around them - quality or not. Hence the caution in the community

But as I said, you can't take an engine designed to be reasonably reliable at 270bhp crank, wind it up to 400bhp crank using just charge pressure and spark alone, and expect it to hold together.

But stating that 'preventing Det is cautionary, but taking it to the Det threshold is exploring the limits of the engine' is a shade daft.

But - how are you measuring the what is an acceptable Det threshold? After all Det is not constant state - too many variables cause an engine to Det, or not.

I'd say that exploring Det threshold is a pointless exercise.

Why create an engine that runs on the verge of Det, when det is bad. Why not use the resources and tools available to create an engine of the same power but with no Det risk?

Or have I mis-understood you post?

john banks

"...STi 7s out there with decats, some are boosting to 1.55 bar + with decats and detting."

...is what I said - WITH decats, and 1.55 bar!

Your approach to risk management is novel Mikey.