@@@ Prodrive ATD Test Drive Article (long) @@@
11 April 2003, 08:26 PM
#1
Great article, well worth waiting for.
Would we be able to retro fit to non dccd equipped cars (like a P1?) assuming a dccd is fitted at the same time? If so put me down now
Happily lend Prodrive my car for them to develop it for other customers
Would we be able to retro fit to non dccd equipped cars (like a P1?) assuming a dccd is fitted at the same time? If so put me down now
Happily lend Prodrive my car for them to develop it for other customers
11 April 2003, 08:30 PM
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Fat boy - thanks, and yes, absolutely. At the moment, the cost of the DCCD unit is the main prohibitive factor of the kit, and I know Prodrive are working hard to get the price down. Of course, the more they can sell, the more they can buy and the cheaper they will get it...
11 April 2003, 08:36 PM
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Nice report 
Is the ATD system Prodrives version of DCCD a electronic centre Diff but obviously more adjustable
Tony
Did they mention a price ?
Is the ATD system Prodrives version of DCCD a electronic centre Diff but obviously more adjustable
Tony
Did they mention a price ?
11 April 2003, 08:59 PM
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Ed,
Too hassled to read properly.
Very very impressed by the skim read (you lucky git!), if you're getting the first one, I'll have the second!
I'm a bit worried about trashing a set of tyres in 2 hours, thats gonna cost me about £25K a year in rubber, worth it though by the sound of it!!!!!!!
Sorry if I've not read properly, rather listen 2 your verbal feedback, either way though I want & I need!
Too hassled to read properly.
Very very impressed by the skim read (you lucky git!), if you're getting the first one, I'll have the second!
I'm a bit worried about trashing a set of tyres in 2 hours, thats gonna cost me about £25K a year in rubber, worth it though by the sound of it!!!!!!!
Sorry if I've not read properly, rather listen 2 your verbal feedback, either way though I want & I need!
11 April 2003, 10:21 PM
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Tony - a this stage I guess its impossible to put an exact figure on it, and bear in mind I don't represent Prodrive so don't quite me, but from what I can gather I think they would like to sell it at a similar price to the PPP.
If they can manage that I think that represents good value for money to enthusiasts (bearing in mind the DCCD unit alone costs more than 1k) but I don't expect as many 'mainstream' buyers of the Subaru would fork out as they do for PPP as there is less of a tangible benefit.
Paul - should hopefully see you on Tuesday.
If they can manage that I think that represents good value for money to enthusiasts (bearing in mind the DCCD unit alone costs more than 1k) but I don't expect as many 'mainstream' buyers of the Subaru would fork out as they do for PPP as there is less of a tangible benefit.
Paul - should hopefully see you on Tuesday.
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11 April 2003, 10:38 PM
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How odd. For some reason I was editing a spelling mistake and it crashed my machine and deleted the entry!! 
Ah well, here it is again!
--------------------------
Well here it finally is. Sorry for the delay, I've been settling into a new home and a new city so it's been a manic week.
Thanks again to Simon and Damian, and apologies for the lack of photos of the ATD - we were just having too much fun driving it!!! I've filled in with a few that Damian took of me on the skidpan.
Enjoy.
Ed
-----------
Midday, Hopwood services on the M42. Two Subaru owners meet to discuss their shared passion. Nothing unusual in that you might think.
The difference today is that the meet is the result of a Q&A session with Prodrive’s chief engineer, Damian Harty; one of a number of high profile visitors to the Subaru message board, Scoobynet.co.uk.
As part of the R&D department for Prodrive’s road car development program, Damian has most recently been developing a new dynamic differential system known as ATD. Standing for Automatic Torque Distribution, the system comprises a standalone ECU, a series of inertia sensors and a yaw-type sensor, some hydraulic controllers, and crucially the DCCD diff control unit. With the torque split 60:40 to the front, the system effectively works by controlling the centre diff lock to alter the ultimate front:rear power ratio.
As part of Damian’s visit to Scoobynet, two members were offered the chance to visit Prodrive’s Warwickshire test facilities to explore the technology in more detail, and ultimately get behind the wheel and experience it first-hand. And so it is that Russell Hayward and myself did just that.
Upon our arrival at Fen End we are greeted by friendly gate guards, and a prompt, smiling Damian. Following a quick tour of the offices we make first contact with the ATD car in the prep workshop; a white JDM Sti7 being shod with fresh rubber, the car is standard save for a set of Prodrive rims and the obvious giveaway of the cars status – huge black ATD lettering emblazoned along the side and rear. A quick glance at the utterly destroyed tyres being discarded gives a hint at the kind of action we will later see.
The demo car does not currently take into consideration mass-market aesthetics, and so a quick scan of the car reveals an ECU between the front seats, a boot full of hydraulics and a Group A rear differential that is loud enough to be heard over even the most extreme exhaust setup. Of course the production version will take all this into account, and once fitted the only thing to remind the driver will be the setting switch by the gear stick, and the fixed grin on their face.
Which is exactly what I wore as we took to Prodrive’s private Tower Circuit for the first time. Those that have attended one of the poplar Prodrive Live days will be familiar with the airfield track, which in today’s configuration combines some short straights, a very fast sweeping right-hander not dissimilar to Silverstone’s Copse corner and a couple of technical esses that blend into tight 1st / 2nd gear hairpins. Interestingly, it also has a rather imperfect surface, making it feel at times more like driving on a fast UK road rather than a track. This fact shows through in the capabilities of the ATD setup and will please those who spend more time on the road than the circuit.
Which doesn’t mean for one second that the ATD is not suited to circuit work. That fact is foremost in my mind as we hurtle towards the fast right-hander at a speed that would have my car heading nose-first into the bank without a serious lift to tighten the line. Unfazed, Damian keeps his foot firmly planted without a hint of understeer. The grip is not dissimilar to a well-sorted track car, and this on standard suspension and rubber. Impressive stuff.
We reach the 180-degree 2nd gear hairpin, and Damian adopts the standard ‘slow in fast out’ stance that the Scooby requires for this kind of corner, but at this point things start to get very surreal. For a brief moment the STi has been stolen from beneath us and replaced with one of BMW’s finest, and we are sliding rapidly sideways in the sort of power-on oversteer that would make even the most committed M3 driver Mica Green with envy.
At seemingly the point of no return, a quick blend of the throttle sees us heading for the mother of all tank-slappers’ as countless kilos of inertia head East, but unbelievably when the car reaches a stance resembling straight, the 4WD and 280 horses hook up as if nothing had happened and throw the car towards the horizon.
After several laps I begin to wonder if this is more attributed to the countless hours that Damian has spent in the car than the systems actual ability, and as we swap seats on the back straight I feel the sort of surge of adrenalin that only 3 weeks of anticipation, an empty airfield and Prodrive’s latest prototype could muster.
As we set off, the first thing I notice is the extra lag on the Jap spec STi, which coupled with the 6-speed box makes the progress altogether more frantic, particularly minus the quickshift that I am now accustomed to.
The car is currently set to ‘normal’ mode, and so effectively this is similar to driving the standard car, which is more biased to understeer than the fairly neutral UK spec cars. This is made very apparent as I turn into the fast right-hander for the first time, as we wash drastically wide and I am forced to lift slightly to tuck the nose in ready to make the braking zone for the s-bend. The slow, tight exit sees the front wheels light up as the turbo kicks in and the front LSD attempts in vain to stop the car from understeering. Safe this setup may be. Enthralling it is not.
I am glad when its time to change mode, and for maximum effect I skip the FWD-biased setting and go straight for the jugular with the RWD option. As we jink through the fast, temporary cone-marked chicane the car already feels like a different beast; taut and lean like an athlete. For those lucky enough to have been driven in any of the latest Mercedes models with self-leveling gas suspension, the sensation is similar to switching to sport mode from comfort, except there is no suspension trickery here. No this is much more clever.
As we head for the hairpin for the first time, I momentarily build a mental picture of sliding one-handed, waving nonchalantly to the photographers and legions of fans. As always the reality is never as sweet as you imagine, and I completely overcook the entry speed and have to stab in some hard cadence braking to stop a trip over the kerbs. Not the best of starts.
Working further around the lap my confidence in the car grows and its potential becomes ever clearer. We pass through a very tight cone-marked chicane near the redline in 3rd gear, compared with gingerly tiptoeing through on part throttle on the prior lap. The Impreza feels like its shed 50 kilos; the body roll is still all too apparent, but the pure grip and instant, ESP-like direction change is quite breathtaking for a 4-door saloon.
Approaching the fast right-hander for the second time, there is no hint of the understeer that destroyed my line first time around, and as the revs rise in 4th gear I am made aware through the seat of my pants of the RWD-bias. From a neutral line, a little extra steering input is all that is needed and the rear tyres finally break traction as they start their attempt to catch up with the front. At this kind of speed, all but the most heroic 911, Ferrari or M3 driver would be breaking a serious sweat, but the steering and throttle inputs are more intimately linked than in any car I have ever driven, and I feel utterly safe keeping my foot in.
The second pass at the corner on the next lap proves that this was more than just beginners’ luck, with little more than an extra inch of input resulting in a beautifully weighted slide. Feed in more lock and some pretty impressive angles can be achieved at speeds that would normally have you climbing into the rear and shutting your eyes. Throttle inputs are equally subtle providing you are on-boost, and you can happily rear-wheel steer in medium-fast corners, with little more than a gentle blending out needed to ease the rear end accurately back into line.
On my third pass I take a deeper line and apply a little left foot braking, but with the nose already where it should be and no understeer to cancel out, it simply starts the back end edging into another glorious slide.
Slower corners are much less graceful, although never less than spectacular, with armfuls of opposite lock and clouds of tyre smoke. However this primarily due to the lag inherent within the Japanese STi and the sudden rush of boost mid-corner. For many, the mere fact that this kind of raucous behavior is possible in an Impreza will be a revelation.
As my laps draw to an end I’m forced to try out the FWD setting, which I naively expect to be a return to the understeer antics of the standard car. On the contrary, and in fact if anything this proves to be the surprise of the day. For sheer out-and-out speed around a track, the FWD setting probably proves fastest, with the same confident, sure-footed nose of the RWD setting, but with increased adjustability mid-corner without pushing into spectacular but time-sapping slides. That’s not to say that they aren’t possible, just that you can push the car harder before they happen, and easily avoid them altogether with some clever inputs.
A quick trip to the skidpan to cool what’s left of the tyres also proves the all-round brilliance of the FWD setting, and I am able to execute continuous lock-to-lock flicks using quick steering input and constant throttle modulation, as well as drifts that seem to defy the laws of physics. At times I was actually traveling backwards before the front and rear wheels conspired to drag me straight again, and the only flaw I find is with the limitations of the standard Momo steering wheel, where the airbag bulge tends to catch your arm during the frantic twirling that is required.
As I head back to my own Impreza its obvious what a winner Prodrive has come up with. The Impreza has always lauded for its overall handling ability, but it’s just a little too neutral for some. With the ATD, Prodrive have managed to combine all the best attributes of FWD, 4WD and RWD, but crucially without making it feel as though the car is doing it all for you. As a retrofit item, surely this system has the potential to outstrip sales of Prodrive’s other Impreza performance booster, the PPP?
As a parting shot, I ask Damian when we will be able to buy it, and am shocked to hear that it could be ready within 3 months. Of course, Prodrive are renowned for a ‘when its done’ philosophy on road parts, as those waiting for the STi7 suspension upgrade will attest, but if they can get the ATD to market at a sensible price, the wait will be more than worthwhile, and you’ll find me at the front of the queue.
Thanks go to Simon for organizing this, Damian for taking time from his busy schedule and for the great photos, and Russell for his charitable contribution and some skills behind the wheel.
[Edited by Edcase - 4/11/2003 10:40:36 PM]
[Edited by Edcase - 4/11/2003 10:44:54 PM]
Ah well, here it is again!
--------------------------
Well here it finally is. Sorry for the delay, I've been settling into a new home and a new city so it's been a manic week.
Thanks again to Simon and Damian, and apologies for the lack of photos of the ATD - we were just having too much fun driving it!!! I've filled in with a few that Damian took of me on the skidpan.
Enjoy.
Ed
-----------
Midday, Hopwood services on the M42. Two Subaru owners meet to discuss their shared passion. Nothing unusual in that you might think.
The difference today is that the meet is the result of a Q&A session with Prodrive’s chief engineer, Damian Harty; one of a number of high profile visitors to the Subaru message board, Scoobynet.co.uk.
As part of the R&D department for Prodrive’s road car development program, Damian has most recently been developing a new dynamic differential system known as ATD. Standing for Automatic Torque Distribution, the system comprises a standalone ECU, a series of inertia sensors and a yaw-type sensor, some hydraulic controllers, and crucially the DCCD diff control unit. With the torque split 60:40 to the front, the system effectively works by controlling the centre diff lock to alter the ultimate front:rear power ratio.
As part of Damian’s visit to Scoobynet, two members were offered the chance to visit Prodrive’s Warwickshire test facilities to explore the technology in more detail, and ultimately get behind the wheel and experience it first-hand. And so it is that Russell Hayward and myself did just that.
Upon our arrival at Fen End we are greeted by friendly gate guards, and a prompt, smiling Damian. Following a quick tour of the offices we make first contact with the ATD car in the prep workshop; a white JDM Sti7 being shod with fresh rubber, the car is standard save for a set of Prodrive rims and the obvious giveaway of the cars status – huge black ATD lettering emblazoned along the side and rear. A quick glance at the utterly destroyed tyres being discarded gives a hint at the kind of action we will later see.
The demo car does not currently take into consideration mass-market aesthetics, and so a quick scan of the car reveals an ECU between the front seats, a boot full of hydraulics and a Group A rear differential that is loud enough to be heard over even the most extreme exhaust setup. Of course the production version will take all this into account, and once fitted the only thing to remind the driver will be the setting switch by the gear stick, and the fixed grin on their face.
Which is exactly what I wore as we took to Prodrive’s private Tower Circuit for the first time. Those that have attended one of the poplar Prodrive Live days will be familiar with the airfield track, which in today’s configuration combines some short straights, a very fast sweeping right-hander not dissimilar to Silverstone’s Copse corner and a couple of technical esses that blend into tight 1st / 2nd gear hairpins. Interestingly, it also has a rather imperfect surface, making it feel at times more like driving on a fast UK road rather than a track. This fact shows through in the capabilities of the ATD setup and will please those who spend more time on the road than the circuit.
Which doesn’t mean for one second that the ATD is not suited to circuit work. That fact is foremost in my mind as we hurtle towards the fast right-hander at a speed that would have my car heading nose-first into the bank without a serious lift to tighten the line. Unfazed, Damian keeps his foot firmly planted without a hint of understeer. The grip is not dissimilar to a well-sorted track car, and this on standard suspension and rubber. Impressive stuff.
We reach the 180-degree 2nd gear hairpin, and Damian adopts the standard ‘slow in fast out’ stance that the Scooby requires for this kind of corner, but at this point things start to get very surreal. For a brief moment the STi has been stolen from beneath us and replaced with one of BMW’s finest, and we are sliding rapidly sideways in the sort of power-on oversteer that would make even the most committed M3 driver Mica Green with envy.
At seemingly the point of no return, a quick blend of the throttle sees us heading for the mother of all tank-slappers’ as countless kilos of inertia head East, but unbelievably when the car reaches a stance resembling straight, the 4WD and 280 horses hook up as if nothing had happened and throw the car towards the horizon.
After several laps I begin to wonder if this is more attributed to the countless hours that Damian has spent in the car than the systems actual ability, and as we swap seats on the back straight I feel the sort of surge of adrenalin that only 3 weeks of anticipation, an empty airfield and Prodrive’s latest prototype could muster.
As we set off, the first thing I notice is the extra lag on the Jap spec STi, which coupled with the 6-speed box makes the progress altogether more frantic, particularly minus the quickshift that I am now accustomed to.
The car is currently set to ‘normal’ mode, and so effectively this is similar to driving the standard car, which is more biased to understeer than the fairly neutral UK spec cars. This is made very apparent as I turn into the fast right-hander for the first time, as we wash drastically wide and I am forced to lift slightly to tuck the nose in ready to make the braking zone for the s-bend. The slow, tight exit sees the front wheels light up as the turbo kicks in and the front LSD attempts in vain to stop the car from understeering. Safe this setup may be. Enthralling it is not.
I am glad when its time to change mode, and for maximum effect I skip the FWD-biased setting and go straight for the jugular with the RWD option. As we jink through the fast, temporary cone-marked chicane the car already feels like a different beast; taut and lean like an athlete. For those lucky enough to have been driven in any of the latest Mercedes models with self-leveling gas suspension, the sensation is similar to switching to sport mode from comfort, except there is no suspension trickery here. No this is much more clever.
As we head for the hairpin for the first time, I momentarily build a mental picture of sliding one-handed, waving nonchalantly to the photographers and legions of fans. As always the reality is never as sweet as you imagine, and I completely overcook the entry speed and have to stab in some hard cadence braking to stop a trip over the kerbs. Not the best of starts.
Working further around the lap my confidence in the car grows and its potential becomes ever clearer. We pass through a very tight cone-marked chicane near the redline in 3rd gear, compared with gingerly tiptoeing through on part throttle on the prior lap. The Impreza feels like its shed 50 kilos; the body roll is still all too apparent, but the pure grip and instant, ESP-like direction change is quite breathtaking for a 4-door saloon.
Approaching the fast right-hander for the second time, there is no hint of the understeer that destroyed my line first time around, and as the revs rise in 4th gear I am made aware through the seat of my pants of the RWD-bias. From a neutral line, a little extra steering input is all that is needed and the rear tyres finally break traction as they start their attempt to catch up with the front. At this kind of speed, all but the most heroic 911, Ferrari or M3 driver would be breaking a serious sweat, but the steering and throttle inputs are more intimately linked than in any car I have ever driven, and I feel utterly safe keeping my foot in.
The second pass at the corner on the next lap proves that this was more than just beginners’ luck, with little more than an extra inch of input resulting in a beautifully weighted slide. Feed in more lock and some pretty impressive angles can be achieved at speeds that would normally have you climbing into the rear and shutting your eyes. Throttle inputs are equally subtle providing you are on-boost, and you can happily rear-wheel steer in medium-fast corners, with little more than a gentle blending out needed to ease the rear end accurately back into line.
On my third pass I take a deeper line and apply a little left foot braking, but with the nose already where it should be and no understeer to cancel out, it simply starts the back end edging into another glorious slide.
Slower corners are much less graceful, although never less than spectacular, with armfuls of opposite lock and clouds of tyre smoke. However this primarily due to the lag inherent within the Japanese STi and the sudden rush of boost mid-corner. For many, the mere fact that this kind of raucous behavior is possible in an Impreza will be a revelation.
As my laps draw to an end I’m forced to try out the FWD setting, which I naively expect to be a return to the understeer antics of the standard car. On the contrary, and in fact if anything this proves to be the surprise of the day. For sheer out-and-out speed around a track, the FWD setting probably proves fastest, with the same confident, sure-footed nose of the RWD setting, but with increased adjustability mid-corner without pushing into spectacular but time-sapping slides. That’s not to say that they aren’t possible, just that you can push the car harder before they happen, and easily avoid them altogether with some clever inputs.
A quick trip to the skidpan to cool what’s left of the tyres also proves the all-round brilliance of the FWD setting, and I am able to execute continuous lock-to-lock flicks using quick steering input and constant throttle modulation, as well as drifts that seem to defy the laws of physics. At times I was actually traveling backwards before the front and rear wheels conspired to drag me straight again, and the only flaw I find is with the limitations of the standard Momo steering wheel, where the airbag bulge tends to catch your arm during the frantic twirling that is required.
As I head back to my own Impreza its obvious what a winner Prodrive has come up with. The Impreza has always lauded for its overall handling ability, but it’s just a little too neutral for some. With the ATD, Prodrive have managed to combine all the best attributes of FWD, 4WD and RWD, but crucially without making it feel as though the car is doing it all for you. As a retrofit item, surely this system has the potential to outstrip sales of Prodrive’s other Impreza performance booster, the PPP?
As a parting shot, I ask Damian when we will be able to buy it, and am shocked to hear that it could be ready within 3 months. Of course, Prodrive are renowned for a ‘when its done’ philosophy on road parts, as those waiting for the STi7 suspension upgrade will attest, but if they can get the ATD to market at a sensible price, the wait will be more than worthwhile, and you’ll find me at the front of the queue.
Thanks go to Simon for organizing this, Damian for taking time from his busy schedule and for the great photos, and Russell for his charitable contribution and some skills behind the wheel.
[Edited by Edcase - 4/11/2003 10:40:36 PM]
[Edited by Edcase - 4/11/2003 10:44:54 PM]
12 April 2003, 07:31 PM
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Russ,
Is the ATD system Fully adjustable from 100%F -50/50- 100%R
unlike the STi8JDM DCCD version is 40%F/60%R - 100% rear and Auto IIRC
Tony
Is the ATD system Fully adjustable from 100%F -50/50- 100%R
unlike the STi8JDM DCCD version is 40%F/60%R - 100% rear and Auto IIRC
Tony
12 April 2003, 07:54 PM
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The answer is that the system it is mapped to behave in a certain way. Therefore there are an infinite amount of "settings" possible.
However I think you really only need two or 3, as demonstrated in the demo car.
However I think you really only need two or 3, as demonstrated in the demo car.
13 April 2003, 03:18 PM
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Good report Ed. Sounds like you and Russ had quite a day to remember then 
Nice to see such closeness between manufacturer (ok tuner, whatever) and the people who buy the cars. Cant imagine many other forums offering such an oustanding experience to its readers.
BTW Ed how did you get the first spot? I know Russ made a donation to charity for his due to the first person not being able to make it.
Simon.
Nice to see such closeness between manufacturer (ok tuner, whatever) and the people who buy the cars. Cant imagine many other forums offering such an oustanding experience to its readers.BTW Ed how did you get the first spot? I know Russ made a donation to charity for his due to the first person not being able to make it.
Simon.
13 April 2003, 04:03 PM
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Simon - yes it is pretty unheard of. I mean, they didn't stand to gain anything from the exercise, I wasn't bound to write this article etc.
Originally both places were given out for asking what Damian deemed to be some good technical questions, but unfortunately the other guy couldn't make it due to work commitments, so graciously auctioned his spot for charity.
Russ - you going to keep the 7 now then?
Originally both places were given out for asking what Damian deemed to be some good technical questions, but unfortunately the other guy couldn't make it due to work commitments, so graciously auctioned his spot for charity.
Russ - you going to keep the 7 now then?
14 April 2003, 11:11 AM
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Ed - the pad is ace - as are the roads around Bristol and the Bristol Subaru crew.
Sti7 eh? Speak to Paul about his setup
Oh yeah, we must organise that Bristol canonball run at some point in summer...
Sti7 eh? Speak to Paul about his setup
Oh yeah, we must organise that Bristol canonball run at some point in summer...
14 April 2003, 02:35 PM
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Jim - presumably you are talking about the green one?
The white one is the Prodrive car, with the OE spoiler. The green one is my own car, with a Rallytec WRC-copy rear wing from DRMotorsport
The white one is the Prodrive car, with the OE spoiler. The green one is my own car, with a Rallytec WRC-copy rear wing from DRMotorsport
14 April 2003, 07:32 PM
#27
The pad is ace.....another intentional pun
Havn't forgoton Ed will defo have to be a Sunday you'll need to find a good spot for us to land...oh and optimax shops
Can chat about some ideas next time we see you
Ed
Havn't forgoton Ed
will defo have to be a Sunday you'll need to find a good spot for us to land...oh and optimax shopsCan chat about some ideas next time we see you
Ed
