blf21

Dear All,

My MY99 Sport was diagnosed with Piston Slap last month by Tiley of Bristol. It is just over 4 years old (registered 26th April 1999), has covered 45k, and does not have an extended warranty. I purchased the car from Tiley's in August 2000 and previously it was owened by Subaru UK. The car has a full Subaru service history. This piston slap can only be heard when cold and last for about 10 minutes until warm.

Tiley's put in a post-warranty application (PWA) to IM after the diagnosis for the repair (replacement piston no. 4) who after two weeks replied with an offer of funding the parts (250 GBP + VAT) but *not* the labour (583 + VAT quoted by Tiley's)

I was not at all happy with this and so wrote to IM requesting that the full cost of the repair should be covered. I stated that piston slap was a know manufacturing fault and as such it was covered under the Sales of Goods Act (1979) and the Limitation Act (1980), and therefore the car is covered by the vendor (Subaru (UK) Limited) against manufacturing faults for up to six years after purchase.

I had the following reply:

Obviously I am not particularly happy with their response. It seems they admit there is a problem, say nothing to refute that it is a manufacturing issue, and as such seems like a complete cop-out. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

This is such a shame as I have been really looking forward to upgrading to a Turbo; but now I really don't want another Subaru.

I am in the middle of writing another letter and am wondering what experiences other Scoobynetters had had. If posting a reply is not appropriate please email me at blf21@cam.ac.uk.

Many thanks,

Ben. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]


[Edited by blf21 - 6/10/2003 10:15:39 PM]

blf21

I forgot to mention that the car is unmodified and has never seen a track. Does anyone have any opinion or advicee on how I can approach IM?

Ben.

ScoobySnack

Seems to me that the dealer and Subaru have been quite fair with you since its out of warranty........ However the labour cost is exspensive . Mind you, the car has not been modified so I would expsect them to be supportive of your claim and extend a goodwill gesture

"I stated that piston slap was a know manufacturing fault" .. I'm sure many people will have their views on this . I would disagree and agree..

J

ScoobyKev

I wouldn't be too happy either. I have a P1 at present and if I found out it had piston slap, then I'd want it fixed. If they offered this service then I'd take things further cus its a manufacturing fault. Then I'd sell the scooby and never buy another.

Regards

Kev

Re-Bitten Hero

Piston slap is not normally a problem on MY99-00, although it is a known manufacturing problem with MY98 and before, due to the slightly larger tolerance on number 3 piston.

Almost all MY99 and MY00 cars I have even seen/heard (including mine) make this sound for a few minutes when cold - it isn't piston slap, it's something to do with the pretensioner on the cam belt. Basically it's no problem unless you drive hard when it's cold, which you shouldn't do anyway.

Unless, of course, yours is a one-off .

Do a search for piston-slap and MY99/MY00 and see what you can find. Good luck!

Cheers
Richard Gledhill (NO relation to the Steve Gledhill above )

blf21

Hi Richard,

We have discussed this here on Scoobynet Before on a Cambridge Meet thread. I was fairly dismissive about it being piston slap at first, but it does bare all the hallmarks.

I've searched and searched regarding the slap, but haven't managed to draw any firm conlusions as to really where I/others stand with IM.

As far as I recall, you thought you had piston slap on your MY00, how did you end up coming to the conclusion that you have?

Ben.

Re-Bitten Hero

Hi Ben,

Sorry, didn't spot it was a Cambridgeite . Sorry to hear you're having problems .

Mine was checked over a few times, and they said firstly that it doesn't happen on Phase II engines (MY99-00), and secondly that when they had found it on Phase I engines, it was invariably on piston 3. He tried disconnecting each of the pistons in turn, and the sound was still there - therefore it's not piston slap, as otherwise it would have stopped on one particular piston.

I've heard from a couple of people about the cambelt pre-tensioner thing, so I assume that's what it is. Mine has done it since about 6000 miles or less, and it's now on 45000 and never missed a beat or got worse.

Haven't got time to do a search now but will try later on...

Cheers
Richard

blf21

Richard,

I did have my cambelt replaced in March last year. Its much more audible when the weather is cold, so I wonder if that was when the noise started and I just only really noticed it when winter cam along (I noticed around Christmas time last year). You've made me think its not piston slap afterall !

Also, my mate's MY99 Sport with 47k does also make exactly the same noise when cold. We had come to the conclusion a few weeks ago before mine was confirmed by Tiley's that they both had the slap. I'm confused now!

The only reference I've found of slap on MY99/00 cars are on Legacys. Not that it should make any difference.

Ben.

Marx Mcrae

iTrader: (4)

I have a MY98 which has piston slap, I took it to Montys subaru dearlers and they said that they had to replace the piston with a modified one ( apparantly a common problem) The price i was told was £700 inc parts and labour

blf21

Marx Mcrae,

Was that including VAT?

Ben.

blf21

Richard,

Do the noise that your MY00 exhibits when cold get worse when the weather is very cold?

Ben.

scoobyboy

i think i.m have been fair with the goodwill gesture as you are out of warranty. after all if they did yours fully it would get around on this forum and every body who is out of warranty would kick off to get theirs done a bit like the juddery clutch problem every one jumped on the band wagon and got new clutches and flywheels when they didn't need it and spoilt it for people who did have a problem hence now they only do 20,000 mls or 12 months warranty on clutches and flywheels.
they have to draw the line somewhere and what they are offering seems fair

Re-Bitten Hero

Yep, worse when cold. Almost non-existent at the moment, with temperatures around 25-30C, then when Autumn arrives, it comes back. With temperatures down to around -15C around here, it's very noticeable for a few minutes until everything warms up. To me, this smacks of something warming up and expanding, not piston slap. Piston slap would occur all the time (I think?).

It was a very common problem on MY98s in particular, but I haven't come across a genuine one on MY99/00 yet.

Perhaps you should divert this to DriveTrain (report to Moderator and ask kindly )?

Good luck getting it sorted (if you bother now!)

Cheers
Richard

Re-Bitten Hero

Ok, ta. Agree definitely that if the sound is still there when warm, it needs sorting!!

Maybe drop Grahame May a line to see if his MY98 Sport is doing the same? If you don't have his e-mail address, drop me an e-mail and I'll give it to you.

Cheers
Richard

blf21

Richard,

Keep meaning to contact Grahame to ask his opinion. His is a MY99 like mine.

Thanks for the reminder!

Ben.

paulwadams_my99

Ben,

Just thought i would share my experience with you here. Got a my99 t uk and in the last 2 months it developed what sounded like terrible piston slap. I took it to the dealers and specifically asked them to check the cam belt tensioner, which they claim to have done. They handed it back to me as piston slap.... All prepared to have an engine rebuild etc and i took it to roger clark's. Wouldn't have let the dealer touch it after my experiences. I also left it overnight with A1 cosworth who diagnosed it as piston slap although i can't blame them as they don't see much of the common issues with subarus. Anyway, long story short is it turned out to be the idler tensioner/cam belt tensioner. The noise was the belt slapping against it. When i was told i was amazed becasue it sounded a lot more internal than that. RCM found it straight away with the cam belt cover off they held a screwdriver against the belt and it disappeared. I never did get to the bottom of why it was worse when cold though but every morning it was a 15 minute chore before it disappeared. I was led to believe that the valve fills up with oil but now im getting out of my depths as there was no apparent oils leakage....

Anyway, if you wanna talk to me via email feel free.

Take Care.

Paul.

P.S. I had my cambelt done about 5000 miles before this all started.

blf21

Paul,

YHM.

Ben.

scooby_si

RC:
Roger Clark Motorsport Ltd
Alder Hall, Peckleton Lane Desford
Leicester Leicestershire
LE9 9JU
They r the daddies if a tad dificult 2 find 1st time, but then i get ost in my own street
Si

scooby_si

oh & Tel: 01455 828610

blf21

Cheers Scooby_Si

Re-Bitten Hero

Great stuff - this is exactly what I thought was the case. It seems that it doesn't fill up with oil properly under some (most?) circumstances until the oil is warm, and therefore thinner. Design flaw .

Let me know how they fix it, and I'll get them to do it on mine at the next service.

Cheers
Richard

ps Ben: yes, MY99 Sport, not MY98 for Grahame. Sorry!

blf21

Richard,

I was on the phone with the service manager from Tiley's this afternoon. He's certain that if it was the cambelt tensioner that it would be heard even when warm?

The plot thickens and is increasingly taking up more of my time!

Ben.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

My MY00 has a similar problem and I am sure it is the Cam Belt Tensioner. They changed the design at some point for the MY99 > cars.

If it has Blue paint marks it is the old design, if green the new design.

I am going to get mine done when the belt gets changed later this year.

My noise only lasts a few seconds and is only noticable when below approx 10 Degree's C.

I am led to beleive that the tensioner looses pressure and has to reprime itself. The noise you can hear is either the belt whipping against the cover, or the tensioner pin bouncing on it's contact point.

As far as I am aware the tensioner does not have an Oil feed, but has it's own internal piston. So I expect that when cold the Oil seal contracts and allows it to loose pressure.

Some people have had them changed during a Cam Belt service because the dealer/fitter has noticed a small oil leak from the piston.

If asll the piston oil is lost then it would make the noise all the time.

[Edited by Scott.T - 6/13/2003 8:34:11 AM]

sooby

I agree with blf21 in that if it was the tensioner you can also hear it when the engine is warm.

Scott.T

iTrader: (2)

The Service Manager at my dealer seemed to think mine was the tensioner, after describing the sympton on the phone.

Although he did not admit to it being a known problem, even tho' they have redesigned the part.

Tensioners are £193+VAT (ouch), needless to say I won't be paying Subaru Labour Rates

i.e Subaru Cam Belt 'Only' supply & Fit price = 3rd party Cam Belt & Tensioner supply & fit inc Tensioner price.

sooby

There are now quite a few people that have a noise towards the front right side of the car (looking into the engine compartment from the front).

I had the tensioner replaced and the noise went away for a short time then came back. Wonder if the changed tensioner was faulty! But the noise seems to be more obvious some days and not others anyway.

I understand another component that lives near the tensioner is the engine oil pump - I wonder if that is an issue.

Marx Mcrae

iTrader: (4)

BLF21
Yeah it was including VAT

blf21

Marx Mcrae,

Thanks for the info

Ben.

douglasb

Hi All

My 2002 Legacy 2 litre (36K miles) had the typical "noise when cold from right front of engine". Sometimes, the noise was worse than others ranging from a loud ticking to sounding almost like a diesel. However, it was only noticable when cold and definitely disappeared when warm (within 5 miles). So I disagree with the guy from Tiley's about tensioner noise being there all the time.

Dealer diagnosed the problem as the cambelt tensioner and replaced it under warranty. Problem solved.

Doug

Re-Bitten Hero

Agree with all above. The Tiley's guy is wrong, it will go away when warm as things expand, seal properly and oil gets thinner and moves around properly. Get another dealer to change it... (and let us know what happens!)

Cheers
Richard