johng666

Dear all.

My Sti had a rebuild a few months ago; car was 3 yrs old and had done 50k miles. Needless to say I was/am pretty p1ssed off. I challenged Subura about it (they should pay for faulty engine) and they have not replied! To put some further pressure on them I want to collate a list of people that have had similar problems to back up my suggestion that it is a Subaru issue rather than a Subaru owner issue.

Can anyone who has had an engine rebuild note their details below as follows:

Username - johng666.
Email - johng@hard.co.uk
Cause (if known) - wear and tear.
Car - STi.
Age/Mileage - 3 yrs/50k.

No need for any other info. Thanks.

John.


[Edited by johng666 - 10/10/2003 11:40:59 AM]

ian_sadler

If it's a three year old STi is it an import?

johng666

Ian.

It is an import but registered as new in the UK.

John.

chiark

So you expect Subaru UK (International Motors) to pay for a new engine from a vehicle that they have never imported officially because it isn't designed for use on UK or European roads? They never sold that car, it never went through their network, it wasn't type approved, it can't have been serviced at an official subaru dealer and IM had absolutely **** all to do with it.

I admire your optimism, but you have absolutely no chance whatsoever. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but just because the car is registered in the UK does not mean that Subaru UK had anything to do with it. Your car is a grey import, and you'll get the support from the official distributor that goes along with it.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that's the reality.

ian_sadler

Yea wot he said

chiark

Plus the cause of this engine failure will be put down to "wrong fuel", unless you've been using 100RON fuel that is provided in Japan...

greasemonkey

Where was it imported from?

johng666

Chiark.

Cheers mate! I take it that your pint glass is always half empty?

Subaru UK may use all the excuses (and more) that you outline BUT there is an issue with engine rebuilds that needs to be recognised as it does happen to UK cars as well ie not just imports! I intend to build up a case against them and issue them with a list of disgruntled customers; if enough people post their details then they can't ignore it. In isolation I recognise that I am of little threat to them but as part of a bigger group?

John.

PS

No one else has posted any details yet but I know that a lot of you have had problems; come on pull your fingers out!

PPS

"wrong fuel" - how would this give rise to the "wear and tear" that caused the engine problem?

PPPS

Greasemonkey - I assume that you are joking (Japan)!!

[Edited by johng666 - 10/10/2003 2:03:52 PM]

[Edited by johng666 - 10/10/2003 2:05:49 PM]

chiark

Sorry, I have been pretty negative for a new poster here - welcome to scoobynet , and sorry for being harsh but I think reality is needed here.

Wear and tear could be another diagnosis for damage by "detting". Have a search and you'll see this is the bane of turbo'd engines.

I'm normally damned optimistic, but on this one I think you may as well try to provoke a revolution armed with, oh, a banana or something like that. Subaru UK will wash their hands utterly of you, as they're fully entitled to do as the car might as well be a completely different brand for what they've got to do with it. (ie nothing - they never imported the STI until 2001, and that was an EU spec STI not a JDM spec STI that you have)

Subaru Japan will tell you to take a running jump as the car is designed to be used on 100RON fuel min, and we only get 95 or 97 over here...

Subaru UK (International motors) will ignore your request in the same way BMW would do if you asked them about a problem on your classic mini cooper... It ain't anything to do with them.

I do realise this isn't what you want to hear, but Subaru UK have nothing to do with your car, so writing to them will get you nowhere.

What might be useful is finding out exactly what failed on your engine as wear and tear means nothing, and starting a thread in drivetrain to see if there's anything you can do to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Was it heads, pistons, short block, bottom end, ???

Cheers,
Nick.

[Edited by chiark - 10/10/2003 2:16:29 PM]

johng666

Nick.

Point taken!

Still leaves the UK cars with engine issues though. I know that some P1's (which apparently use the Jap STi Ver 5 (as my car) engine?) have suffered from the same. There are probably lots of people with UK cars that have suffered from this too?

I'll try to find out exactly what caused the wear and tear and get back to you.

John.

PS

I do get a bit PO'd with many of the "big" companies (includes Subaru) who seem to think that they can p1ss all over their customers and not worry about it. This is probably a rant to be aired within another section of the Forum though!

greasemonkey

It happens to UK cars occasionally, but seeing as you've got a Japanese market car, like all other such people you're basically screwed as far as claiming against Subaru UK is concerned. You should have been more aware of the issues involved in running a Jap market car over here.

You've got no chance, and try as hard as you like you can't equate your situation with that of official UK car owners who've also had blow-up's. You can't use the P1 as supporting evidence either, as although that car uses the same fuel map, it has more active knock correction and also has a Broquet device, that supposedly increases the octane rating of the fuel a tiny fraction. The biggest difference though is that the P1 was sold via Subaru UK complete with a warranty. Your car is a grey import and thus has no warranty support in this country at all.

I'd imagine most of the other people who've made this mistake would be too sheepish to admit it.

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh, but at this time the only group you're likely to be a member of is the "I bought a Japanese import, ran it on UK fuel and it blew up!" club. The one thing every member of that club has in common is ignorance.

There are plenty of people who've had the same problem as you. The trouble is that it's your/their fault. Subaru UK can't be held responsible for your deliberately running a Japanese market car outside the parameters for which it was designed.

Your car is mapped for 100 octane fuel as found in pumps in Japan. Using UK specification 91-98 octane stuff gives rise to detonation when the car is driven hard. Detonation destroys engines. Do a search on it and you'll find out all you need to know.

Why would I be joking? Japan is not the only other country in the world. I was assuming your car was Japanese (as was everyone else) but wanted to make certain you didn't have a Euro- or mid-east spec car before getting too far into the thread on the basis of what could be an incorrect assumption.

The short answer here is that you've no change of tagging Subaru UK for this. Japanese market cars need to be run on octane booster, or remapped for UK fuel. If neither of these steps is taken, an expensive failure is the inevitable result, as five minutes searching here would amply prove.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/10/2003 2:38:28 PM]

johng666

Greasemonkey.

I already know about detonation and can advise that this was not the reason that the engine went pear shaped. To quote the garage "Normal wear and tear on this, no oil starvation or other mechanical cause". The car now has a knocklink device (anyway) to check for detonation but it never lights up above the green even when accelerating hard.

FYI (if you're interested) it was the big end that got damaged; the "knocking" sound that signaled its demise was one of the pistons moving around slightly; apparently there is only a few thousands of an inch tolerance level on them?

Your comments about Subaru are noted but I do intend to pursue them anyway as nothing ventured nothing gained!

John.

chiark

Right, the big end "picked up" at a guess?

There was a very good thread about this in Drivetrain (quite) a while back. Have a look on there. IIRC, there was stuff about this normally happening after a high speed run, too...

If nothing else, you may get to the bottom of what's happened. No engine would let go at 50k miles due to wear and tear - something else will have caused this. If it's wear and tear on the big end then could it be shocks from det causing the premature wearing?

I don't know nearly enough about any of this, but the drivetrain lot are hellishly knowledgeable!

Cheers,
Nick.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Totally standard or modified?

Personally, either way, i think you have no chance at all!

Steven

greasemonkey

All Japanese engines are built to tight tolerances. The flat four engine design is particularly critical as the short crankshaft imposes limits on the size of the bearings.

There is some evidence to suggest that transient oil starvation caused during oil changes can sow the seeds of big end damage that becomes critical later in the car's life, so this is also a potential explanation, and it's one that also applies to UK market cars.

Still doesn't mean you have any claim against Subaru UK though - any warranty obligations you have would be against Subaru in Japan, and you'll have voided that by bringing the car over here. This is something you would/should have been aware of when buying the car, so trying to nail IM for it now is taking the p*ss a little bit.

Incidentally, is your KnockLink fed by its own dedicated sensor, or is it piggybacked onto the standard one?

If this is still your plan I suggest you contact them ASAP, as the sooner you get your answer the sooner this can be put to bed.

johng666

Greasemonkey.

The knocklink has its own sensor.

Re your comment "There is some evidence to suggest that transient oil starvation caused during oil changes ...", I know that there may be an issue with the garage that services the STi but, again, flucking difficult if not impossible to make a case against them also! FYI engine went 2 days after a service!

You have convinced me about Subaru UK so I won't bother them again BUT the whole episode (including no response from Subaru UK to 2 nr letters) has put me right off the Impreza and all Subaru vehicles hence my next car won't be one and it's probable that I will never darken the door of a Subaru showroom again. It's their loss as my interest in performance cars is still alive and well (is that the Evo showroom that I can hear calling).

Steven - car is standard mechanically.

Nick - I'll visit Drivetrain and see what it throws up.

John.

chiark

You are not alone in this, this has been reported before quite a few times... and it might have something to do with the garage...

Most people advocate getting oil pressure into the engine before starting after changing the oil & filter. To do this, remove the cam sensor and the engine will turn but not start, ensuring that everything is nicely lubricated and pressurised.

Engines have failed just after servicing, and this has been found to be a contributing factor.

Again, search as there's a thread in drivetrain...

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Been there suffered that on a MY99, at 6 months old.

johng666

Guys.

Thanks for your comments. I'm off home now so I'll catch up with this later.

John.

greasemonkey

Hmmm, why am I not surprised to hear that?

This now makes you a member of the "my engine blew just after an oil change" club, and TBH, again, you're right, there's nothing you can do about it. The garage will no doubt give you some spiel about them changing oil the same way for 40 years and never having a problem before, and you are not in a position to prove otherwise.

The established wisdom in this BBS advocates some simple steps (pre-filling the new filter with oil and cranking the engine on the starter to establish oil pressure before firing) to reduce the chance of this situation occurring. However, the fact that this is established wisdom in a bulletin board on the internet doesn't establish it as the de facto correct way to change the oil, and thus you can't use to prove that the garage didn't service the car correctly.

These procedures are implemented by at least some Subaru main dealers, but we are unsure whether they are openly advocated by IM. Either way, as your car is a grey import and you can't prove negligence on the part of the dealer, we're back to you not having a leg to stand on.

Can't blame IM for ignoring you, as far as they're concerned your car doesn't exist. TBH if your letters had the strident tone of your earlier posts here I'm not surprised they weren't returned.

Seems to me you're being a bit selective with the lessons you choose to learn here. It's not just Imprezas that blow up occasionally, I've had an Evo engine spectactularly fail in the past, and if you blow an imported Lancer up, you'd receive exactly the sort of reception you got from IM, so you can't single Subaru out for special criticism here.

In this case you created at least some of your own problems by purchasing an import. If it had been a UK model, you'd at least have had the warranty to fall back on.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/10/2003 6:27:14 PM]

Adam M

nick,

mine still failed after this was done.

From now one, I will be cranking the car a few times with no cps, but more importantly with the plugs removed to remove compression.

chiark

Interesting Adam, I didn't realise that!

greasemonkey

Have a look here Nick.

johng666

Greasemonkey.

You're not a very sympathetic fellow are you!

You seem to think that I am some sort of t*sser cos I bought a jap import but please remember that not everyone is as knowledgable as you. When I bought the car I was unaware that some jap imports blow up. When it blew up I was still unaware and it wasn't until I looked on the Forum that it came to my attention. You have made the same point countless times now so there really is no need to [edit - keep] banging on about it.

FYI though, my engine blow was not detonation (as noted above); simply wear and tear. The bits of the original engine that I have in my posession are not black at all, in fact they are very clean. My understanding is that such a problem could happen to any Impreza regardless of it being a jap import or not. I am therefore p1ssed with Subaru, full stop.

As far as my "strident tone" is concerned this is simply as a result of having to spend £3k to fix an engine that, in this day and age, should be bullet proof.

Yours, much the poorer, but better informed now,

John.

[Edited by johng666 - 10/12/2003 6:50:09 PM]