Mikkk

I'm currently fighting a battle with my conscience over the following:
STi Type UK (Nov '03) -> warranty until Nov '06
Do I:
a) Buy the PPP thereby keeping my warranty with Subaru
b) Wait 2 years then slap TSL 333 on the old girl
c) Slap the TSL 333 on her now and damn the warranty
d) Just live with it standard and save £2k+ (mods+insurance=pain when under 30)

I'm sure this is a common dilemna amongst Subaru owners but I've yet to see any discussion on it, comments?? Death threats?? Proposals of marriage??

I've been browsing TSL's site but they don't mention any form of warranty with the 333 option ... I therefore assume a standard 12 months on parts?? Can anyone comment??

Also how does Subaru's own warranty work out?? Would the warranty remain intact for the parts of the car unmodified or does it simply wink out the moment you change anything?? (I appreciate I could work this point out by reading the fine print but I'm sure someone else on here has already done that and is willing to confess)

At the moment I am leaning towards option D until I crack the big three-o and then off I'll trot to the land of L&V where milk & honey flow free

Thanks in advance for any help/info.

billythekid

I have a WRX and have warranty until late 06 and am considering the options at the moment.

The PPP is expensive and for similar money I could get a full system, ecu map, fuel pump and maybe injectors and this would give me 280ish bhp.

Or I could get PPP.

I think I will prob end up with PPP.

Neil W

Another here wanting answers to these questions!

scooby L

I'd wait for 2 years and then slap the 333 (or another non ppp) remap/de-cat on it.
I feel you will get the best out of the car and save some dosh as well, not a bad idea

(I'm just not a ppp fan).

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

As a famous writer once wrote "Warranty or no Warranty, that is the question!" (Me) LOL You bought a dearer UK car, for the Security of Warranty You should have considered an Import and then save the difference not covered by warranty

These cars are very reliable considering the power output but they aren't bomb proof.

PPP(300ish) is Probably very slightly safer than TSL333 in the fact of it being lower power and no other reason both are mapped with safety in mind Both are a improvement to the cars.

What you should consider is The Price of each over the 3 years and the difference between them the TSL333 pips PPP but that comes with a risk, No Warranty But the closer you get to the end of Warrany the difference widens in TSL's favour.

If you can't get insurance with PPP may also struggle with TSL333.
L & V only charge me £16.80 more for PPP as I wanted it quoted on the Certificate

ScoobyL,

your probably right, PPP from new or TSL333 at end

IMHO

Tony

Mikkk

Any more comments from those who've gone either/both routes with their pride and joys?? (Thanks to those who have already posted)

Phil Herrup

I had a new WRX 03 and decided to do non PPP. I reckoned the custom remap was better value provided the engine doesn't blow up which is very unlikely - but this was based on a "cheap" EU import. If you wait 2 years to upgrade your STI you'll only prefer a new 2.5l or better version at that time. Go with your heart my friend - you're a long time dead!

MTR

Mikkk,
Your car is currently covered by the Subaru UK warranty for 3 years or 60,000 miles.
If you choose the PPP kit, the warranty is still valid, and can still be extended to 5 years for an additional fee.

If you choose the 'cheaper?' option of the TSL 333 (which has been discussed at length recently MAY NOT give 333bhp, but nearer 300bhp) how much LESS do you feel your car will be worth at any time up until the warranty period expires?

Will you then have 'saved' any money at all?

Or is it possible you will actually cost yourself more in the long run (not withstanding any future mechanical maladies your car may suffer. drivetrain/gearbox/braking system etc will all be classed as unwarrantied due to the increased stresses associated by increasing the loadings beyond the manufactures agreed levels ie PPP as maximum safe power)

As a Subaru approved mod, your car will be a much safer option for the next prospective owner to buy, with potentially the option of increasing (for a fee) the manufacturers warranty to 5 years.

If you choose the TSL route, then you have eliminated the warranty for you and the next owner, should you choose to sell within the 3 to 5 year time frame.

Ask yourself if there were 2 identical STi's (except one is PPP one is TSL) secondhand at 2 1/2 years old.
Which one would you buy?

The one which if it goes bang could cost £000's + to rebuild (TSL) or one which if you pay £500 (ish) will benefit from a full manufactures warranty up to 5 years old.

I have absolutely no hesitation for myself, I wouldn't touch a modified Impreza Turbo with a barge pole.
And EVERY SINGLE car and motorbike I have EVER owned has been modified by me, right back to my gas flowed Puch Maxi moped.
I don't run std vehicles.

But my STi Type UK is PPP'd because it is worth so much money, I cannot afford to gamble with the potential failure.

I work as an engineer in the Aerospace Industry and mechanical failures are something we try extremely hard to avoid. Planes cant't pull into laybys.
It has made me extremely safety conscious.

A post on here has stated that the WRX engines dont't blow up!!

The Impreza engine may not commonly throw conrods and 'blow up' but they most certainly and with alarming regularity destroy themselves to varying degrees.

Seizures, knackered big end bearings/crankshafts etc etc always with extremely costly repairs.

I have personally seen a std P1 and STi7 engine destroyed.
Both fixed for free by Subaru UK.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

But gambling with a £27,000 car (the approximate value after TSL 333 or PPP)
For anyone considering that, then you must be very rich.

Edited to add this lot:

Another point that is commonly discussed is about how much better modification 'A' is to mod 'B'.

In my opinion the std STi My 02 an onwards is absymal to drive. With PPP on its very good.

Is the PPP eclipsed by many other tuning options? Possibly.

Can you really justify the massively increased financial risk for the massive (possible exageration?) improvements on the road that some if not all the aftermarket tuning companies would have you believe their products give.

They are in the business of getting your money.
So are Prodrive and Subaru UK, but they fix it it if it goes wrong.

There was an post on 22B.com about an egine that was built and produced some wonderful power figures, just before it blew up on the test bench.
It didn't make it into a car.

This is not a dig at that company, they are stretching the boundaries of what is achievable.

But a private individual is paying for it, not the engine tuner.
He must believe its for the best, and hopefully will get the product that fulfills his requirements, without exorbitant costs.

Everyone is saying how well done it was etc, but it blew up before it was even driven. Thats success?

If you are a international company with huge funds then that is the way development will often go.

But you are a private individual potentially testing a aftermarket tune up on your car at your financial risk.

In conclusion you can safely say I 'love' the PPP, but I definately 'love' the warranty more.

Cheers
MTR

corradoboy

For a comparison of these and several other tuning packages, see next months Evo magazine. Features on PPP, TSL333 and many others including Grahame Goode and a £15,500 pack from Roger Clarke which gives 450bhp and 0-60 in 3.99

Pittsey

I am also considering these options. How much would it cost me to get PPP, or where can I find info on the price? I already have the prodrive backbox, would that save me any money?

Thanks

Mikkk

PPP details: Here perhaps?? (MY03 STi Accessories)
MTR: Just the kind of post I've been hoping for, thanks for the info and perspective!!
corradoboy: cheers for the headsup

Have to say I'm leaning towards PPP if anything... wonder how many coppers I've dropped down the side of the sofa this month

R.B

I have had my sti8 from new (NOV)with the ppp fitted and to be honest i wasent impressed with it at all.The boost never held it was up and down like a yo yo.

I thought i could put up with it but in the end i had to sell the ppp i wanted the car to run correct.

The car now runs the below

Hks Hyper system 3"
Janspeed downpipe (Wrapped)
F.S.E uprated fuel pump
Sti panel filter
Tek 3 with 3-port boost solenoid mapped by Bob Rawle (BRD)

I had some figures from G-Force of 332 Bhp / 295 lbs but was told the rollers were about 10 bhp down from last week due to a new part?

There was a Sti8 ppp there that day which only got 274 bhp

So i guess you know where to spend your money now dont you.

R.B

Scoobsti

I have been through this thought process myself. I have a MY 02 STi type UK with about 1 year of normal warrantly left - not counting the possible extension.

The decison I came to was that PPP was not worth the money - there are better things I can do with £2k thank you. I also questioned why I wanted it in the first place. If it was for performance - it's an expensive way to get an extra 25 - 30 bhp and if I want to go faster (!) improving my driving skills might have more benefit than 30 extra horses - and anyway - someone else always has something faster. Yes the car may be 'better' to drive, but again it's an expensive improvement.

What I DO have however is a Prodrive back box - which gives me the sound I like without warranty problems.

I would have PPP if it was £750 (or less) - but it's not worth the current asking price (IMHO) and I don't want to risk losing the warranty on an expensive car that isn't exactly slow in the first place.

Scoobsti.

MTR

R.B.
I din't want to go down the route of modification 'A' produces more than modification 'B' ergo it must be better, but that would appear to be a major factor in your descision making, notwithstanding the fact your car apparently didn't run correctly when fitted with PPP.
Perhaps if someone had been able to correct it it may have produced results like the ones on the link.

The results from another RR day at Well Lane can be seen here
http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=300659

Crafts (Graeme) STi 7 with PPP, Firestorm and decat centre (which the PPP already has a silenced decat centre, and will make very little difference) made 326BHP.
Somewhat more than the 274bhp than the one you saw, and very close to your figures.

Granted it is very mildly modified, but I have also witnessed a STD STi 8 PPP (if you know what I mean) make 311 BHP at Well Lane.
That is a bit better than Prodrive claim, and considerably better than the example you saw.

The figures in themselves are completely meaningless, as one rolling road will vary from another, but it does emphasise the possibility of considerable power variances from one car to another of very similar, if not identical specification.

I would like to draw one potentially important (to some people at least) point about the modifications made to your car, and commonally employed by others.

You state you have a Janspeed down pipe.
I assume that this does not have a Catalytic converter in it?

If thats the case then technically and in the eyes of the law, the vehicle is in an unroadworthy condition, as it will not pass an emissions test or a MOT, irrespective of the fact it may not be 3 years old and officially require one.

Presumably, and this point has been discussed many times on Scoobynet, without a satisfactory answer ever being aired, the car 'could' also be classified as uninsured?

If you were unfortunate enought to be involved in a serious road traffic accident, and the vehicle was examined by the Police, it would be highly likely you would be charged with using a vehicle on a public highway in an unroadworthy state.
You couldn't claim it was like that when you bought it if you bought the car brand new.

If the insurance company then exercised their right to void your policy, the ramifications could be extremely costly, and far reaching for you and your family.

I am not critcising your personal choice of tuning route, but expanding on a statement that your car is more powerful than my car, so it must be better, type argument.

The question posed isn't wholey about which modification gives the most power/blows up earliest/negates my warranty/voids my insurance/is the best value for money(cost less), but an analysis of ALL the options, and their pros and cons.

By the way I ran a MY00 with a illegal exhaust, so I am not trying to be sanctimonious. But after 5 1/2 weeks removed it because it was slower than std, and dam noisy, allied to the worries over legality and insurance, and warranty.

As I have said, you pays your money etc

You have chosen a different route to one I would want to take.

I am not saying one is better than the other, BUT the performance differences between a properly sorted STD PPP STi8 (311bhp) completely legal,warrantied etc I don't believe will be vastly different to a car similar to yours, with no warranty,ilegal?, (potential prosecution from the Police) and potential insurance invalidation.
(if your car has a Cat the comments above don't apply)

Both cars will be quick, yours probably slightly quicker, but not to such a level you would waste me or vice versa.

I have organised and run five Northern Meets, and had the oppertunity to compare my 4 Imprezas with others derivatives theoretically more powerful/quicker, and the differences are generally very slight, over a 60 mile varied road conditions type route.

The on road performance of all the cars is very easily law breaking level.
Which one suits the driving style/requirements of the owner will always be a matter of personal choice.

As stated before if your car has got a Cat, then these point will clearly not apply, but a number of tuners do advocate the fitment of such equipment on road cars full in the knowledge that their customers are breaking the law and being put at risk.

Some web sites actually bother to point out that it is illegal to fit decat pipes to your car.

I suppose if customers demand them, they have to make a living.

Cheers
MTR

currymonster

MTR well lane has a reputation for giving figures 10 to 15 bhp above expected. G Force and powerstaion are more the other way, just thought I'd chuck that in for a little controversy!

Cal

+Doc+

They would be both stripped back standard anyhow and you would be none the wiser

At the end of the day its personal choice, IMO if you are modifying your car beyond a certain point then it will need professionally setting up / mapping this is something Subaru cannot do.

MTR

Curry monster there is nothing wrong with a bit of controversy.
But I don't take any notice of rolling road figures except on my own cars as a back to back comparison for before and after modifications comparison figure, not definative outright power figure.

Cheers
MTR

corradoboy

The main problem with the PPP is the map, or who does it. A friend of mine took his STi8 PPP down to TSL as he was unhappy with the boost coming in so aggressively at 3k and then completely running out of steam at 5.5k. After a few minutes Richard Bulmer (former WRC engine techie) stated it was "quite possibly the worst map" he'd ever seen. The car was fuelling for 5.5k at 3 and so had nothing more to offer when it got to 5.5. He remapped it for £500 and now it pulls smoothly all the way through the range upto and beyond the red without a sudden surge as boost comes in. Annoying as it may be to pay for something twice, he is now very happy with his car. In retrospect, it might be a better route to buy a cheaper Motorpoint STi and do whatever mods you like, as you won't even have a warranty to worry about.

Mikkk

Thanks for all the posts guys ... this is exactly the sort of info and discussion I (and quite a few others it would seem) was hoping for. So far it is as I suspected ... warranty (or lack of) vs performance & cost.

For me personally, as I bought the car new specifically for the warranty and peace of mind it offered, I am looking at the PPP route (if I were to go ahead). My other option is to leave the car standard until the warranty expires and then play (The latter option is the favourite for now as the PPP+insurance hike ~£2.3k and it'll take me a while to squirrel that away)

Please keep the opinions and info rolling in ... it all helps build a rounded understanding of what is a complex (and usually expensive) topic

DBY

Interesting one this, has anybody had a WRX 03/04 PPP (NON STI) re map yet if so what are the results ie Tek 3. Have seen lots of standard cars re maped in this way but no one yet as far as I know has had the above done yet.

regards

John

PS Someone prove me wrong please.

Jza

TSL 333 = Goes like stink

PPP = Goes like stink

Leaving standard = waist of a good car

How much do you value the extra few potential BHP over your warrenty...?

I would NEVER want to run a scooby without a warrenty of some sort. If it goes wrong, its gonna cost a packet - period - cheaper parts or not.

So do you really need that extra 0.25 secs to sixty - is it worth risking the warrenty...? If your loaded go for it...

Jza

MikeWood

corradoboy

Either your mate or TSL are pulling your leg as you can't actually see the map unless someone actually gives you the data. Even then they won't be able to see anything as it's encrypted.

Mike

crusher

Are all PPP's esentially the same then...a plug in ecu from the box....It's just a little alarming to spend the money on a PPP'D car and hear of someone having a v bad map...surely if true it should be corrected foc by Prodrive...

corradoboy

Mike, I don't doubt you know a hell of a lot more than I ever will about maps and everything else car related, but my friend didn't like how his PPP'd 8 ran and took it to see if it could be improved and it was. I didn't drive it before the work was done but he said it was very aggressive at boost but faltered above 5k. He said my WRX PPP had more go up top. I have driven it since the remap and found the power delivery to be very smooth with a constant surge of power right up to 6.5k. Much nicer delivery than my WRX, so I'm thinking of doing the same. It was the day after the remap that I drove it, and it prompted a change to the shift light from 5.2k up to 6.7k.

Apple

Mike,

A couple of questions:-

If an ECU has two maps available and one is made into PPP, is the other one still available for remapping, i.e. the ECU would become PPP and "more tweaked map" rather than standard and PPP?

Assuming that PPP maps are unreadable / uneditable by anybody outside Prodrive, as you say, would it look like Corradoboy's mate has just had the other map overwritten with a "standard" 3rd-party map?

What's the turnround time at the moment from putting an order in at a dealer for a MY02 WRX PPP? Are we still looking at a similar output torque curve etc to a MY03/4 map as per your website? I'm not really interested in the raw max. power figures (for the "Lax Bowels" lot )- I'm more interested in the lower end driveability and improving the take-up on the standard WRX and getting around some of the bogging down feeling (I came from a "sports" turbo diesel to the scoob so feel it's a bit gutless at the lower end.)

Thanks,

Andy

MikeWood

Andy

There is a huge amount of rubbish talked about how the ECU remapping works and you may have been fed some of it.

In the std map there are two boost maps that EcuTeK have exploited to make a switchable version but this is then a different base to be starting from than a std map. Any new map will overwrite the std map, no matter what it then achieves so there isn't an unused std map that can be used for something else.

It is also not possible for anyone else to remap a Prodrive ECU without costing themselves a licence ie the ECU is effectively a std ECU that doesn't have an EcuTeK licence on it.

If a car is running badly (applies to a std car as well) this is normally down to something that has affected in negatively like bad fuel, det from fuel surge or high temperatures and simply resetting the ECU so it forgets the bad episode is sufficient to get it back to how it should be.
Guess what happens when you remap an ECU? It gets reset and loses any previous negative ignition correction that may have caused it to perform less than optimally.

The way the ECU works means that one map for a particular mechanical spec works as the ECU is very adaptive. The fuelling is generally set slightly rich (richer than you would want for maximum power but we are making sure it lasts, rather than achieving max power but for a short period of time in limited conditions) to keep the det levels down and the ignition correction is amongst the most powerful strategies of it's type in any ECU so that pretty much takes care of itself. As a side note we have done loads of work on this recently with the WR1 and have unearthed some interesting ways of controlling the ignition that no-one else has even thought about yet. We also take advantage of some temperature correction maps that are not fully exploited as std to make sure we don't get into det issues when the intake system gets too hot.

02MY WRX PPP is available from stock at Subaru at the moment, you just need to get your dealer to place an order. The PPP for this age of car is mapped slightly differently to the later cars to keep the pre-turbo cat temps safe ( the later cars all have a metallic cat wheras the earlier ones had a ceramic one which won't take as high temps safely) so the power figures are slightly more conservative but torque is similar.

Mike

Jza

I may have my "disagreements" with what the PPP says it does vs what it actually does when tested, but i cant think of many owners who arent pleased with the way it transforms the car.

If your mate was unhappy - im pretty sure it will be down to a problem with the car - not the way the PPP works. IMHO Prodrive dont release things that dont work....

I drove an sti 8 PPP and it pulled like a train to the red line - certainly not dropping off at 5500 revs

I'm no expert on the subject - but ive always been told that you cant remap a PPP.... so i would think someones got their lines crossed....

Jza

hawkeye

By the looks of it thats what Mike Wood is saying you cant REMAP a PPP ecu you can BLANK it then put a different map on it HENCE it then WONT be a PPP map



hawk


ps Mike my offer still stands regarding my car to be tested upon, MY02BUGGYeyed sti (ish) never been raced or rallied one lardy owner....(ask simon he knows)

MTR

So disconneting the battery for half an hour would be a better way of 'checking ' if you PPP'd car is actually OK, before spending £xxx having it remapped.

Cheers
MTR

Apple

Thanks for that Mike - it seems to be case of the ECU remembering whatever was "installed" last and dumping previous setups. As with any remap / ECU change there'll be a learning period where the ECU stabilises itself depending upon its imputs.

I'll give my dealer a shout for the PPP...

Andy

PS Is there a market for swapping earlier to later cats and installing and MY03 PPP ECU?