MK2 2L16v Golf v Scoob Track and Road Cars
28 October 2004, 01:06 AM
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MK2 2L16v Golf v Scoob Track and Road Cars
Hi Folks....need some of your advice
I have a well sorted old skool MK2 Golf which has been built to a genuine 200 + bhp.
I've used it as my daily driver 25 mile commute to work and I do about 6-8 trackdays a year.
It's the last of the big bumper variety and it runs to nearly VW Cup spec (bar Leda Suspension solid head steel bottom end)
It has a diff big brakes Koni Eibach susp/roll bars and runs Dunlop Inters on track.
Essentially it does 30-35mpg and it runs 1.22 per lap at Coombe...1.28/9 at Donington.
It has to go and I was considering a Scoob to do the same ie track and road work.
I am concerned on what I'm letting myself buying a Scoob or an Evo because of Fuel consumption and group 20 insurance.
Is it better to go for an import or a UK car and then Pro drive it.
I spoke to Power Engineering and they frightened me over no 3 piston problems and big expediture for rack work to make the car durable.
I've also heard they understeer badly speaking to some Scoob owners at trackdays I've attended. Is this factual ?
What sort of MPG do you get ?
What essentials do you need for track work ie engine (do they need re mapping or is that on imports to make them safe ?
What are the factory standard brakes like ?
Which is cheapest on insurance ?
Do they all need 98 RON fuel ?
Regards
Ian
I have a well sorted old skool MK2 Golf which has been built to a genuine 200 + bhp.
I've used it as my daily driver 25 mile commute to work and I do about 6-8 trackdays a year.
It's the last of the big bumper variety and it runs to nearly VW Cup spec (bar Leda Suspension solid head steel bottom end)
It has a diff big brakes Koni Eibach susp/roll bars and runs Dunlop Inters on track.
Essentially it does 30-35mpg and it runs 1.22 per lap at Coombe...1.28/9 at Donington.
It has to go and I was considering a Scoob to do the same ie track and road work.
I am concerned on what I'm letting myself buying a Scoob or an Evo because of Fuel consumption and group 20 insurance.
Is it better to go for an import or a UK car and then Pro drive it.
I spoke to Power Engineering and they frightened me over no 3 piston problems and big expediture for rack work to make the car durable.
I've also heard they understeer badly speaking to some Scoob owners at trackdays I've attended. Is this factual ?
What sort of MPG do you get ?
What essentials do you need for track work ie engine (do they need re mapping or is that on imports to make them safe ?
What are the factory standard brakes like ?
Which is cheapest on insurance ?
Do they all need 98 RON fuel ?
Regards
Ian
28 October 2004, 06:45 AM
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If you want to go as fast as you have been used to, I would suggest you get an import. They are fairly impressive times around Donington.....
28 October 2004, 08:25 AM
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Stick with the golf, it'll save you thousands each year. Used to have a heavily modified 8v GTi years back and it's more fun than the scoob on a track; also the interior is better laid out and of better quality - not that it matters for a track car.
Or buy a radical for the track and get a 'cheap' road car.
Or buy a radical for the track and get a 'cheap' road car.
28 October 2004, 08:50 AM
#5
A little over 6 years ago I took delivery of my MY98 UK Impreza Turbo, it replaced a '90 Corrado 16V, I had been looking for something a little quicker and had been looking at Corrado VR6's, Fiat Coupe Turbos, etc when someone suggested I try an Impreza. I ordered the car immediately after the test drive!
Anyway, I had owned the car for 2 months and 3000 miles before I went to my first trackday at Donington. It was completely standard and coped really well, but as people have told you, it did understeer and the standard 2 pot brakes would wilt within a few laps.
Since then the car has been through numerous changes in an effort to make it better each time, only recently have some of these modifications been a step backwards (the suspension is now too hard for the road).
I found that on my daily commute to work the Corrado would average 28/30mpg, the Impreza 24/26. I ran both on Super Unleaded, I found it was a false economy to run either on normal 95 ron, especially the Impreza. On the track, to date, despite the mods, I have seen as low as 6 mpg and as high as 10
With an Impreza I would not risk running it on anything less than Super Unleaded these days.
The first mods that I made to my car to improve it for track were:
Get the suspension geometry changed to the 'Prodrive' settings (now I'd say go to Powerstation and get their setting, including the bumpsteer mod) this virtually eliminated understeer and made the car far more tail happy.
Fitted braided brake lines, a dot 5.1 brake fluid, harder brake pads (Mintex 1155 in my case)
Fitted an exhaust backbox and a panel filter
This made a dramatic improovement to the car on the track, however an awful lot of that could also be put down to me really starting to get to know it.
From that point on it's all be down hill
Coil over suspension, bigger brakes, complete exhaust systems, ecus, turbos, intercoolers, injectors, fuel pumps, induction kits, gearboxes, engines... it's never stops!
Anyway, back on topic...
This all starts with how much money do you want to spend?
Starting with a standardish car and improving it gradually is definately very satisfying, as you grow with the car and learn what does and doesn't work, or at least it has been in my case. Don't worry it doesn't take 6 years to reach perfection! I was limited by my warranty for the first 3 years, and within 2 months of that expiring my car reached what I think was the zenith of it's performance, I've now gone over the edge a bit too far
A UK car is generally speaking cheaper to insure, an Import has more toys and is more powerful out of the box.
If I were starting again and had say 10 to 12k to spend I would go straight out and buy an Sti V or VI Type RA V-Limited, without question the best out of the box impreza if track days are your bag. It has all the toys that a Type R has (my second choice) in terms of a 35/65 rear wheel drive bias plus a quicker steering rack. Get the geometry set up right on one of these, go to the track and you'll be stunned at it's performance.
If you don't want to spend that sort of money then look at an early RA. They're pretty basic, fairly strong and 5k will buy you a pretty good one.
Once you've found a car you'll get to know it's weeknesses on track quite quickly, concentrate on the chassis first, power second.
Later (MY99 UK, MY97 Import) cars generally have the better 4 pot brake calipers which will do to start off with (assuming good pads, fluid and braided lines) but really an AP set up is the real way to go. Suspension wise, after geometry look at solid anti-rollbar drop links, different springs and anti-rollbars first then progress to a good coil over set up. A spare set of track day wheels is a very good idea.
If you do get an exhaust system on the car be aware that it's not uncommon for Imprezas to have problems with noise limits when a full system is fitted.
What ever you do invest in a Knock Link to monitor your engine for knock, this is especially important on an imported car. Ideally I would at the very least get an import mapped to run on UK fuel, and if it's a post MY99 car I would get the MAF sensor checked, they're a weak link and have been the death of far too many engines
Incidentally, back in 1998 on my first track day a certain MY99 spec UK Turbo which had a full exhaust system, Leda suspension and Brembo brakes was lapping the full donno circuit (ie including the Melbourne hairpin) in around 1.24s...
Hope this helps
Anyway, I had owned the car for 2 months and 3000 miles before I went to my first trackday at Donington. It was completely standard and coped really well, but as people have told you, it did understeer and the standard 2 pot brakes would wilt within a few laps.
Since then the car has been through numerous changes in an effort to make it better each time, only recently have some of these modifications been a step backwards (the suspension is now too hard for the road).
I found that on my daily commute to work the Corrado would average 28/30mpg, the Impreza 24/26. I ran both on Super Unleaded, I found it was a false economy to run either on normal 95 ron, especially the Impreza. On the track, to date, despite the mods, I have seen as low as 6 mpg and as high as 10
With an Impreza I would not risk running it on anything less than Super Unleaded these days.The first mods that I made to my car to improve it for track were:
Get the suspension geometry changed to the 'Prodrive' settings (now I'd say go to Powerstation and get their setting, including the bumpsteer mod) this virtually eliminated understeer and made the car far more tail happy.
Fitted braided brake lines, a dot 5.1 brake fluid, harder brake pads (Mintex 1155 in my case)
Fitted an exhaust backbox and a panel filter
This made a dramatic improovement to the car on the track, however an awful lot of that could also be put down to me really starting to get to know it.
From that point on it's all be down hill
Coil over suspension, bigger brakes, complete exhaust systems, ecus, turbos, intercoolers, injectors, fuel pumps, induction kits, gearboxes, engines... it's never stops!
Anyway, back on topic...
This all starts with how much money do you want to spend?
Starting with a standardish car and improving it gradually is definately very satisfying, as you grow with the car and learn what does and doesn't work, or at least it has been in my case. Don't worry it doesn't take 6 years to reach perfection! I was limited by my warranty for the first 3 years, and within 2 months of that expiring my car reached what I think was the zenith of it's performance, I've now gone over the edge a bit too far
A UK car is generally speaking cheaper to insure, an Import has more toys and is more powerful out of the box.
If I were starting again and had say 10 to 12k to spend I would go straight out and buy an Sti V or VI Type RA V-Limited, without question the best out of the box impreza if track days are your bag. It has all the toys that a Type R has (my second choice) in terms of a 35/65 rear wheel drive bias plus a quicker steering rack. Get the geometry set up right on one of these, go to the track and you'll be stunned at it's performance.
If you don't want to spend that sort of money then look at an early RA. They're pretty basic, fairly strong and 5k will buy you a pretty good one.
Once you've found a car you'll get to know it's weeknesses on track quite quickly, concentrate on the chassis first, power second.
Later (MY99 UK, MY97 Import) cars generally have the better 4 pot brake calipers which will do to start off with (assuming good pads, fluid and braided lines) but really an AP set up is the real way to go. Suspension wise, after geometry look at solid anti-rollbar drop links, different springs and anti-rollbars first then progress to a good coil over set up. A spare set of track day wheels is a very good idea.
If you do get an exhaust system on the car be aware that it's not uncommon for Imprezas to have problems with noise limits when a full system is fitted.
What ever you do invest in a Knock Link to monitor your engine for knock, this is especially important on an imported car. Ideally I would at the very least get an import mapped to run on UK fuel, and if it's a post MY99 car I would get the MAF sensor checked, they're a weak link and have been the death of far too many engines
Incidentally, back in 1998 on my first track day a certain MY99 spec UK Turbo which had a full exhaust system, Leda suspension and Brembo brakes was lapping the full donno circuit (ie including the Melbourne hairpin) in around 1.24s...
Hope this helps
Last edited by Tim W; 28 October 2004 at 08:54 AM.
28 October 2004, 11:15 AM
#6
Interesting questions but overall I'd suggest staying with the golf and
get the ledas
OK here goes :
Fuel consumption will rocket, both on road and track !
(That said I get an average of ~ 24, but don't yet do track days).
Insurance on imports is quite a consideration, may be worth getting a uk car
as a base ( I know of several people who have taken this route and the
savings are considerable). ... possibly more to do, but could well work out
cheaper.
Provided the mpping's good, I believe these engines are somewhat under estimated.
I believe imports need remapping for uk fuel (I had mine done and it was
money very well spent).
Essentials I would suggest :
Pads and disks
Braided hoses dot 5 fluid
17" wheels (if not already fitted) and obviously good tyres
Rear antiroll bar upgrade
Geometry setup
I would suggest that later brakes are better but not great
Insdurance is more dependant on you and where you live/ins history etc ...
I would suggest that yes you should use 98 in all turbo imprezas
HTH
Adam (also runs a 205 MI16)
get the ledas
OK here goes :
Fuel consumption will rocket, both on road and track !
(That said I get an average of ~ 24, but don't yet do track days).
Insurance on imports is quite a consideration, may be worth getting a uk car
as a base ( I know of several people who have taken this route and the
savings are considerable). ... possibly more to do, but could well work out
cheaper.
Provided the mpping's good, I believe these engines are somewhat under estimated.
I believe imports need remapping for uk fuel (I had mine done and it was
money very well spent).
Essentials I would suggest :
Pads and disks
Braided hoses dot 5 fluid
17" wheels (if not already fitted) and obviously good tyres
Rear antiroll bar upgrade
Geometry setup
I would suggest that later brakes are better but not great
Insdurance is more dependant on you and where you live/ins history etc ...
I would suggest that yes you should use 98 in all turbo imprezas
HTH
Adam (also runs a 205 MI16
)
28 October 2004, 03:44 PM
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Thanks guys for very informative info.
There are many things to consider and on a small budget I get the impression that a UK car is a good idea (or the 98 STI V import).
I have seen a few rally quick Scoobs this year mostly at Coombe and one at the Ford RS day...it was a black STI with pink decalls on the back possibly a WRX..don't think it was out of the box...running Yoko A048's.
I couldn't live with that but unfortunately it would be way over my budget.
The trouble is that my car has reached it's peak unless I spend loads more and put TB's mapping solid had 300+ cams making it more track than road orientated.
Evo's seem like a good prospect but again my budget won't stretch that far.
You will probably have seen a friend of mine Bill Brockbank's yellow Seat Ibiza running 350 bhp and sequential Quaiffe box.......massive outlay but stunning on track 1.17 at Coombe this year.
I have a MKIV Golf which is currently 230bhp with Koni Coliovers etc etc.....needs a diff and more grunt possibly a IHI..trouble is the wife uses it !!
After all of your advice I may stick with the Golf........after all it is old but is cheap as chips when considering track use and it's cheap for consumable parts ie Pagid Fast Road pads..£27..Brembo 280mm discs £38 for the pair...car only weighs 1100 kg
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ian
There are many things to consider and on a small budget I get the impression that a UK car is a good idea (or the 98 STI V import).
I have seen a few rally quick Scoobs this year mostly at Coombe and one at the Ford RS day...it was a black STI with pink decalls on the back possibly a WRX..don't think it was out of the box...running Yoko A048's.
I couldn't live with that but unfortunately it would be way over my budget.
The trouble is that my car has reached it's peak unless I spend loads more and put TB's mapping solid had 300+ cams making it more track than road orientated.
Evo's seem like a good prospect but again my budget won't stretch that far.
You will probably have seen a friend of mine Bill Brockbank's yellow Seat Ibiza running 350 bhp and sequential Quaiffe box.......massive outlay but stunning on track 1.17 at Coombe this year.
I have a MKIV Golf which is currently 230bhp with Koni Coliovers etc etc.....needs a diff and more grunt possibly a IHI..trouble is the wife uses it !!
After all of your advice I may stick with the Golf........after all it is old but is cheap as chips when considering track use and it's cheap for consumable parts ie Pagid Fast Road pads..£27..Brembo 280mm discs £38 for the pair...car only weighs 1100 kg
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ian
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28 October 2004, 04:10 PM
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Being a bit of a track day adict myself I also suggest that you stay away from the Subaru. I would think about a more track day orientated car such as an S1 elise if you want to use it as a daily drive.
28 October 2004, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by msportman
Hi Folks....need some of your advice
I have a well sorted old skool MK2 Golf which has been built to a genuine 200 + bhp.
I've used it as my daily driver 25 mile commute to work and I do about 6-8 trackdays a year.
It's the last of the big bumper variety and it runs to nearly VW Cup spec (bar Leda Suspension solid head steel bottom end)
It has a diff big brakes Koni Eibach susp/roll bars and runs Dunlop Inters on track.
Essentially it does 30-35mpg and it runs 1.22 per lap at Coombe...1.28/9 at Donington.
It has to go and I was considering a Scoob to do the same ie track and road work.
I am concerned on what I'm letting myself buying a Scoob or an Evo because of Fuel consumption and group 20 insurance.
Is it better to go for an import or a UK car and then Pro drive it.
I spoke to Power Engineering and they frightened me over no 3 piston problems and big expediture for rack work to make the car durable.
I've also heard they understeer badly speaking to some Scoob owners at trackdays I've attended. Is this factual ?
What sort of MPG do you get ?
What essentials do you need for track work ie engine (do they need re mapping or is that on imports to make them safe ?
What are the factory standard brakes like ?
Which is cheapest on insurance ?
Do they all need 98 RON fuel ?
Regards
Ian
I have a well sorted old skool MK2 Golf which has been built to a genuine 200 + bhp.
I've used it as my daily driver 25 mile commute to work and I do about 6-8 trackdays a year.
It's the last of the big bumper variety and it runs to nearly VW Cup spec (bar Leda Suspension solid head steel bottom end)
It has a diff big brakes Koni Eibach susp/roll bars and runs Dunlop Inters on track.
Essentially it does 30-35mpg and it runs 1.22 per lap at Coombe...1.28/9 at Donington.
It has to go and I was considering a Scoob to do the same ie track and road work.
I am concerned on what I'm letting myself buying a Scoob or an Evo because of Fuel consumption and group 20 insurance.
Is it better to go for an import or a UK car and then Pro drive it.
I spoke to Power Engineering and they frightened me over no 3 piston problems and big expediture for rack work to make the car durable.
I've also heard they understeer badly speaking to some Scoob owners at trackdays I've attended. Is this factual ?
What sort of MPG do you get ?
What essentials do you need for track work ie engine (do they need re mapping or is that on imports to make them safe ?
What are the factory standard brakes like ?
Which is cheapest on insurance ?
Do they all need 98 RON fuel ?
Regards
Ian
28 October 2004, 09:29 PM
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My car is normally atmos powered....it runs a Pack A head 2 litre balanced bottom end lightened flywheel split profile Schrick cams 4 branch modded stock fuelling and metering head vernier pulley and thats about it...apart from a Quaiffe ATB diff.
It has good handling for front wheel drive and it normally can give a Type R Civic a good run.............out dragged one along the straight at Donnington..(just)
I may have to be sensible and use it for a bit longer..........all the above was done with 2nd hand bits over the period of a few years with TSR Performance's help
Ian
It has good handling for front wheel drive and it normally can give a Type R Civic a good run.............out dragged one along the straight at Donnington..(just)
I may have to be sensible and use it for a bit longer..........all the above was done with 2nd hand bits over the period of a few years with TSR Performance's help
Ian
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