chuckster

I've gotta admit I am pleased to see an advertised Prodrive presence, even if not in an official prodrive capacity - as Simon has said, he doesn't deal in domestic UK sales, besides which Prodrive doesn't deal with the public directly, rather they deal through the Subaru dealer network.
If we made him sign on as Prodrive he might not be able to post anything, I doubt they want the kind of legal obligations that may be brought on by that.
The post about the suspension was a good response from Simon I thought, first he stated what seems a logical fact (matched springs and dampers are best solution) and then suggested to a UK car owner that he might want to consider the prodrive product. As Simon stated above, the fact he works for Prodrive is evident in his post's and anyone considering his advice can take this into account when coming to a conclusion.
Rather than ask Prodrive to pay for a banner, I'd like to give them their own Forum, where people with UK cars with IM warranties to consider can ask about what upgrades are available which are warranty friendly - this would be very valuable to those users who are unwilling to risk their waranty in any way. Let's face it, I know people whose dealers would not even allow a scoobysport backbox (Never mind any arguements abt any equivalent quality product being suitable under EU law, once the 1st year warranty expires this doesn't count as extended warranty offered by IM not Subaru). But would Prodrive be willing to support this?
Cheers
Charles

[This message has been edited by chuckster (edited 30 August 2000).]

Neil Micklethwaite

I for one applaud a Prodrive Presence on this BBS ( in whatever capacity ) , I do think Chuckster's idea of the Prodrive Forum ( Perhaps as a Sub Forum of "Dealer And Third Party Supplier Queries" )
is a good one.

I would also like to see them utilise the Banner Ads and no 'blatant' marketing in the Topics.

Although, Simon, you will have to accept that this is a public forum and as such the audience and their opinions are varied
and strongly held.

We seem to have the UK camp , The Prodrive camp , the STi camp , the European Import camp and the non UK camp at times
instead of the Impreza Camp.

You will come in for critisicm from some camps and praise from others it is just the nature of the beast.

At times it all seems a little like Monty Pythons Life of Brian viz a viz 'The Peoples Front Of Judea'.

It is truly a double edged sword so my only advice would be to use it wisely, carefully and profesionally.

Hopefully the moderators will do their jobs correctly and cut off any threads that over step the mark.

Everyone should bear in mind why the previous BBS was shut down.

RaymondH

I'm another who is pleased to see Prodrive on this BBS and I'm fed up of the discouraging attitude being shown to some suppliers and not to others. BPM's style was unfortunate and we don't want that again but why can't Simon say what he has available when the Wax Wizard (for example - not picking on you, Mark )seems to actually be encouraged to promote his products? I have no problem at all with the WW but fair do's for all and if somebody has useful information or an interesting product then I certainly want to hear about it. Stick with us if you can, Simon - nil desperandum carborundum!

Raymond.

[This message has been edited by RaymondH (edited 30 August 2000).]

Simon Lines

Simon Lines

I have to assume from your posting that you have a direct relationship with Prodrive... Is this the case?
I couldn't help noticing how part of your post seems like a rather unsubtle attempt at marketing the Prodrive product. I am not sure if you are aware of the response that BPM received when they first started using this board as a marketing tool, but maybe you could have a look in the archives.

<<snip>>

Moray Mackenzie

You are correct in your assumption, although no attempt has been made to hide my occupation or location. If I had wanted to be anonymous i would have answered this thread from home, but I feel no need to hide.

The post was not an attempt (subtle or otherwise) at marketing our products, it simply points out that buying a correctly designed product, that is available though the dealer network gives piece of mind.

Subaru and (especially) Prodrive gets a lot of “stick” on various BBS’s about pricing and other points. Surly then, if I, or others attempt to answer a point and / or critical comment about Prodrive or our products it could be construed that I / we are using the BBS for marketing purposes? Perhaps you would be good enough to let us know were the line between “marketing” and “answering criticism” is?

It is inevitable that everything I post is seen as coming from Prodrive, you may feel the post has a marketing angle but you cannot deny the truth of what I said

It has seemed to be the general consensus on the BBS that a “Prodrive presence” is appreciated, was this only when tit-bits of information were being posted? But when a post makes a point it is called “marketing” and receives veiled threat’s?

I look forward to you reply, I am also keen to see the general opinion.

Cheers all

Simon J Lines
Export Account Manager
Prodrive

Jonathan

I for one welcome Prodrive posting on this BBS. I suspect Moray is just coming from his ANTI IM/Prodrive stance again. There are a lot of owners on this board that own UK cars and not STI's. Most will welcome any input from official sources.

Its alright for Scoobysport to post, Bob Rawle etc. Therefore we should encourage Prodrive and any other offical sources to post.

People can read a commercial angle into anything they want if they are that anti. I think that both Simons and Mike Woods posts have been informative and answering questions raised in threads. Slightly different to BPM launch on this BBS.

If Moray thinks that Prodrive contribution to date has been in the BPM vain then sign off now as a Moderator and get someone in with an open mind. Simon even signed off with his title at Prodrive so he was hardly hiding anything.

Remember we dont all own Imported STI's on this BBS.

Jonathan


[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 30 August 2000).]

PeteC

I agree absolutely with what Jonathon has said. The few postings that I have seen from Prodrive personnel have been informative, or in response to direct queries. To compare them with the initial BPM postings is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

I would not want to see the BBS taken over by aggressive marketing posts, but that certainly hasn't been the case with Prodrive.
I'm sure that no-one resents input from Scoobysport, Scoobymania, GGR, the Wizard, etc, so why pick on Prodrive?

Pete

Paul Wilson

Bu$$er didn't post properly and now I've to post it all again. Going to do the short version.

1. Great to have you here
2. Would be an idea to change your user name or location to Prodrive
3. Any threads started by you should not be "Wow buy this fantastic new product that is better than anything and only £xxxx" (not that I think you would)
4. Bear in mind that this service is free only to those who use it, twice it has almost shut. (considered a banner ad? those with ads get a lot more latitude)
5. Any "anti" WRX/STI/Euro imports posts would be taken very badly (not that I think you would)
6. Any "anti" any other company posts (esp if an advertiser) would be taken Extremely badly (not that I think you would)
7. Any info that you come by that does not relate to selling us anything would be taken VERY well, go on tell us when are getting 280bhp
8. Do have a look at BPM/Greg Nickoladis posts as they give a very good idea of what is not acceptable, esp. early posts, he got better near the end.

Didn't want to sound at all negative I think it is great you are here, we've been missing any "official" presence.

Go on get a banner ad

[This message has been edited by Paul Wilson (edited 30 August 2000).]

Gary Foster

I've read some of Simons responses before and I haven't felt that any of them were over publicising Prodrive products at all.

All Simons posts I have read have been a simple statement of facts, I could see nothing underhand in anything he has said. I for one appreciate this and find responses of this type very very useful.

Gary

Neil F

I suppose it is a fine line between marketing and answering criticism, but you have to be a little more sensitive to peoples feelings.
With regard to your comments, there are many aftermarket tuners out there who offer Subaru upgrades based upon a sound motorsport background as well as Prodrive(Falkand, LEDA etc) and apart from potentially conflicting with those suppliers opinions/products you can inadvertantly offend (us) customers who have spent many hundreds of the queens finest proudly upgrading their cars in good faith, by suggesting that the products they have bought are unsuitable. I personally find Prodrives attitude elitist on occasions.
I like many others drive an STi, and for my sins am treated like a leper by everyone "Subaru", Prodrive included, except for the independant tuners who are quite prepared to acknowledge the STi marque and cater for it. Prodrive, and their representatives, need therefore to word things carefully for us Impreza owners who are not "official" UK model owners.
Remember that much of the P1's advertising on the official Subaru website involved a "putting down" of STi's and while I acknowledge that you haven't said anything directly against the STi in the aforementioned post, I am trying to offer an opinion on why you may be frostily recieved.
I welcome "Prodrive's" presence on this BBS as much as Jonathon, but would you be prepared to offer any positive advice/input to STi owners?

Neil.

JayDee

It's nice to see Prodrive taking an interest. I have emailed them in the past (twice) and had no response. As a result of this I did not buy the PPP which I was considering.

Please don't tell me that dealers should be able to answer all questions. Well maybe they should be able to but all they actually did was give me a leaflet.

JD

Neil F

I think for completeness everyone should read the original posting that sparked this particular discussion:

Paul Wilson

Ah yes I can see how that post by Simon could easily be taken the wrong way.

perhaps this

"I would suggest you invest in a properly developed suspension kit that contains dampers matched to the springs which will last considerably longer than 30k and which is covered by the 3 year / 60k UK warranty. Something like the full Prodrive suspension kit? Which is available from you local dealer."

should have been this

"I would suggest you invest in a properly developed suspension kit that contains dampers matched to the springs which will last considerably longer than 30k, there are many suppliers out there (including ourselves) ask around and perhaps get a drive in cars with various kits on"


OT p.s. Do you actually guarantee your suspension from 3 years after fitting or just the std warranty on the car? As Stef now has no warrenty.

blp

As a regular reader I have no problem with the Prodrive input. And Im sure that a compnay the size of Prodrive would see it as a worthwhile investment to place a banner add.

KF

Simon,

I am pleased to see a Prodrive presence here.

The more information and opinions that are available to me, the better. I am quite cynical, and can make my own mind up about the impartiality and value of posts.

Blatant marketeering will win no friends, but that is beneath you and Prodrive, where reputation and results are your most powerful tools.

I was aware from your first post that you were from Prodrive, and you never came on the board with false pretenses. These are good points, however beware that the knives are sharpened.

Unless you are willing to defend bad service that results from any Prodrive product or service, in Banbury or at a local dealer, and be seen to put it right, you are going to have a rough ride.

This BBS gives the little man a big voice, and has been a thorn in the side of a few companies...

I hope that you will continue posting.

KF.

Simon Lines

I seem to have started a fair old debate. I would definitely agree with some of the things Neil F said – We are trying to change that.

As you know I deal with export, as such I do not have the full facts on all the nuances of the UK situation. I do accept (with hindsight) that my original post could have been taken the wrong way. However also I recall reading the original debate’s about fitting Eibach’s with standard springs – along with various comments about “over-priced Prodrive suspension”

I let this colour my reply in this case – That was unprofessional so I apologise.

Simon
Export Account Manager
Prodrive

Craig H

Simon,
I would suggest your presence is welcome, but not if when making suggestions, your products are the only ones mentioned.

I appreciate it will be difficult for you to do otherwise, but in the instance we are referring to, there are plenty of other products which are comparable to yours. Or better

You say that development costs money - I agree - is that why your products are so expensive. Nothing to do with quality?

And I agree you need to word carefully what you say so as not to offend STi owners. I upgraded from a UK car as nothing was in the pipeline for a more powerful model. And IMs attitude towards people like me, f**ks me off no end.

Tang

I think people are being a little sensitive . There are a lot of viewpoints here, that is the purpose of the BBS, but none of them is forced upon us, and I for one consider that the vast majority of those who post are intelligent enough to make up their own minds. The point is that Simon's view is just as valuable as any of ours, it's just that people seem to take offence at his because he has a Prodrive attachment, which is a little unfair. No one takes offence at my belief in the Prodrive products as a user do they???

I welcome Simon's presence, and certainly didn't feel he was "marketeering" at any stage.

Whilst I agree that marketeering should be discouraged, it would be a little contrived for Simon to say that there are other named products out there. Simply stating the availability of a Prodrive option is not marketeering, it is posting useful information, which (hopefully) is one of the driving purposes of this BBS, and should not be discouraged.

I would not press him to put up a banner ad, as this means the service is not free to him, as it is to everyone else, and so long as he is not marketeering then he is not getting something for nothing so to speak.

I think the input and information he is providing is very useful (although I would say that being a PPP and DEP convert), and agree that it may be appropriate to put up a Prodrive banner/question section.

I hope that you stick around Simon, it would be a shame if we scared you off.

Tang

lordlucan

Simon

Good to know people from Prodrive check out this board, respect you for not hiding your identity.

Prodrive presence = a definate yes
Prodrive marketing = a yes if Prodrive contribute to the running costs of the board, say a banner ad ?

Jase

Dippy

As has been stated, it was obvious that Simon works for Prodrive. I don't blame him at all for recommending the Prodrive suspension. It was hardly marketing, he was genuinely answering a query. Now if Simon started a thread "Buy our products ..." then I'd agree that the moderators should strike it!

I too welcome Prodrive's presence on the BBS. There are plenty of us who are interested in the products. I don't think that a separate forum is really needed though.

I am amazed that people get so political all the time.

Yes, the STI owners get a hard time from IM because they see personal importing as lost profits. IM are there for one reason - to make money.

Yes Prodrive are more expensive because they have a captive market. It is sound business sense for Prodrive sell via the dealers.

Yes the independent tuners welcome STI owners, because they want to make money out of tuning their cars!

Yes manufacturer A will say his product is better than manufacturer B's. What do you expect?

If someone has a biased opinion (most of us do), as long as that is made clear (e.g. 'by the way I work for Prodrive') then we can take the opinion with as much salt as we want.

This BBS is excellent because in a short time you can receive a range of opinions on a subject to help with a decision. Since a lot of these decisions regard a purchase, there's bound to be an element of business bias somewhere along the way.

I would like to encourage freedom of speech on this BBS - and let each of us make his/her own mind up about what is said.

P.S. The thread "Intercooler Splitters" in Private is blatant marketing. So is this: The splitters are v. good and excellent value for money - go buy one now!

[This message has been edited by Dippy (edited 30 August 2000).]

Paul Wilson

Peoples Front of Judea? SPLITTERS

we're the Judean Peoples Front

Raymond, I think if you look you will find that WW has a banner ad on the board, plus they are a small company with service second to none (IMHO)

Personally I think we have become a bit oversensitive to commercial posts after the BPM incidents. But I think Simon's done pretty well so far.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Didn't a number of Prodrive staff used to have STis as company cars - but IM made them sell them?

I ask merely as an innocent!

R ;D

Neil F

Just to clarify my postion.
I welcome all input from individuals and companies alike, Prodrive is obviously included.
All companies however must be very careful not to allow their product range to bias their advice.
Prodrive (or it's percieved representatives) have to be especially careful due to their somewhat complicated stance; for one they are the official tuner/supplier to Subaru and "could" therefore claim a right to dismiss all unofficial competion as "unsupported, untested, against warranty or even outright dangerous".
Their position is further complicated by the fact that this bbs supports grey imports which are unsupported by Prodrive full stop; on it's own a very contentious point.
Simon's original post seemed to suggest that the Eibach spring kit could cause premature failure if the dampers did not recieve an upgrade, and he is quite possibly right; sound advice maybe. But (Tang) his suggestion that you may wish to choose a "...... properly developed suspension kit.........and which is covered by the 3 year / 60k UK warranty" was rather more than just a hint. How many spring damper kits come with a 60,000 mile/3 year warranty? That's quite close to marketing?!

To comment on Dippy's point about "independant tuners wanting to make money out of STis", well of course, and were happy to give them our money if it seems appropriate. You may also consider that I would be happy to give my money to Prodrive for certain products but they don't want it!

Simon has made his position clear now. An apology has been made which I'm sure is accepted by all.
I hope this isn't construed as being political. I'm just trying to restate the potential dangers.
Keep posting Simon!

Oh, and Simon, what do think about Eibachs with STi dampers........

dowser

Agree with most of the above & have no problem with the "marketing" aspect - we're all big enough and ugly enough to make our own decisions, regardless of source. I'd welcome more supplier posts in fact.

I don't see a huge difference between another member or a company representative telling me that X product is best.

What I'm not so sure about is someone who does have a commercial interest, but doesn't highlight the fact. While its not necessarily misleading I'd feel more comfortable knowing someones background to better gauge information provided by them.

Now then - who wants to buy a new stroker kit I've been working on

Richard
PS: I've got Eibachs with standard MY99 dampers - can't buy the Prodrive kit in Switzerland..hint, hint Mr. "Export Manager" Lines!

Geezer

It is rather naive of anybody to expect Simon Lines to speak about non-Prodrive products/services in anything but a dismissive manner. Whether he posts in an official capacity or not, his employer would take a dim view of one of their employees recommending 'grey' products in a public forum such as this. You would never hear Gordon Brown say "Well gents, off the record I support Conservative policies wholeheartedly", so don't expect Prodrive employees to be any different.

His comment about a warrantied suspension kit may have been marketeering, but on the other hand, it was also a very sensible suggestion because having your warranty unaffected is very important to alot of people.

It just seems that this BBS does not like Suabaru UK, IM or Prodrive because they feel hard done to over STis and WRXs. Why this is I don't know. Other manufacturers have the same practices, it's nothing new. Some models are available in some countries, others are not. A manufacturer will be unwilling to support any products that they have decided not to officially import, and rightly so, as a whole bag of worms will be opened up.

Prodrives presence can only be a good thing, as they obviously have a wealth of experience with Subarus.

Geezer

DavidG

I'm glad to see Prodrive represented here. I agree with everything Jonathan says. I disagree with Neil about the different "camps" though. I have a (more or less) standard UK car, but I have nothing against Sti's or Euro imports. There may be a few who think their car choice is the only sane one but most of us appreciate Impreza's in all their many and glorious forms.

David

PhilBennett

Point about Prodrive. Prodrive is a very succesful commercial operation run by some very clever people. The problem for Impreza owners is the bull**** factor.

You guy's love it. Prodrive kit is expensive and is generally no better than many other specialist product.

Many people who have dealt with Prodrive on their motorsport side in the past(i.e. Honda Accord super touring car or Subaru Impreza rally cars) got sick of being "ripped off".

And it is all very well saying - "well that's the price of development" but when that cost has already been borne somewhere else it just leaves a bad taste.

It will be interesting to see if Ford will use Prodrive to develop the Ford Focus BTCC "kit" for 2001 - because it has been pointed out to Ford, by many teams, that Prodrive will send costs skyward if they are involved with the supply of that kit - once bitten, etc, etc....

On a positive note - why shouldn't anyone have there say? After all ScoobySport and ScoobyMania are represented and aren't known for keeping quiet.

KF

Phil,
Tell me more about the "Bull**** factor".

The way I see it, we have the oportunity to buy differenct performance enhancement products of a given quality for a given price. These differences are quantifiable, and there are people queueing up on this board to impart these differences.

People pay £6k more for a UK Subaru over one that got of the ferry in Amsterdam, for the sake of a warranty. For those sort of people Prodrive will give a product at least as good as the others, and charge them a little extra (as do IM) for the warranty. Everyones happy.

I know nothing about professional racing, but surely the same applies, except that you have to be more astute with your (sponsors) cash. If Prodrive are charging prices out of proportion to the quality of the goods then people are (surely) able to go elsewhere. The fact that they don't implies something...

KF.

PhilBennett

No the way it works is that Prodrive get a contract to run XYZ in BTCC or rallying, say.

Then when the current kit becomes old - i.e. 99 spec Impreza's or back in the old days 97 spec Accords they sell the stuff to private teams.

Problem is they tie up all the supply routes so the contract you sign when you buy a car states you MUST buy from them.

Then you end up down the litigation path if you go elsewhere.

Like I said Prodrive is run by clever people who suck people like you in.

KF

Phil,

Eek! We are banging heads on 2 threads now...

It is apparent to me that you believe honesty and integrity are paramount, and expect nothing less of anyone else. I am more cynical, and always assume that someone is out to f*ck me over.

From what you have said about the professional motorsport side of Prodrive, they make you sign a contract, and if you breach it, they sue. Fair enough. It may be a bit underhand, and it may not rest easy, but you signed the contract.

It is always going to come down to a matter of finance, and if Prodrive can force you down that route because (presumably) the hardware that you purchase from them is better, the you will have to find the readies to stay the course. Otherwise you will have to opt for 2nd best.

If, however, Prodrive hardware is not worth the extra money, and people are tied into the chain, then the customers will resent that fact, and will not pay again. Prodrive's business will be on a crash course. I don't see that as being the case.

This, though, is outside the scope of the discussion on the original point raised by Simon, to whom I apologise for taking this thread off course.

KF.

PhilBennett

Hi KF - don't worry it's only a bit of banter.

Look Prodrive can charge what they like and you are right - if you sign on the dotted line then nobody forces you to.

To get this back on thread and into a more relevant context - take brakes (seems appropriate!!). Why are 4 piston Alcons nearly £2K from Prodrive?