Who will win?

 

The Aussie WRX is the 218PS version, as opposed to the more potent Japanses WRX and STI. Assuming the road is dry and has a few straights I'd assume the Porsche would win.
Allow each driver to choose his own stretch of road and I'd bet that the WRX would win on his road (which would be very twisty) and the Porsche on his (which should be very straight). The new Porsche has 296bhp and 251lb/ft, along with a 174 mph top speed, the WRX 218/214/144 - so who cares? I'm suprised you would encourage us in this type of competition. How about my Impreza 22B type UK (one of 16 produced, so even more exclusive than your car I'm afraid, I think Australia got 8 examples of the STI 22B)(276bhp/264ft/lb and 0-60mph 4.7secs(official, yet conservative figures)) vs your 1974 911? What would be the point?
Charles

 

Charles,

I posted this topic to promote a clean-er debate, not because I view the concept of this proposed grudge match to be entirely sound!

If it were dry, I think the 996, as with any 911, would surprise the WRX driver on the WRX driver’s road of choice. The added agility and traction borne of Porsche's decision to mount its engine in the rump makes the 911 more of a threat than it is inaccurately perceived to be. Many conveniently forget that the 911 has a rally career every bit as illustrious as the WRX; what sets the 911 apart is that it has also enjoyed an equally illustrious career as a campaigner in endurance events like Le Mans and the Targa Florio.

STI 22B vs 1974 Carrera 2.7?

Apples to apples, Charles!

I think a slightly detuned 1973 Carrera RSR would be the ideal match-up for you, and would usher the formidable 22B to the nearest exit, but not without a fight to be sure!

Matt Holcomb




[This message has been edited by MPH (edited 14-06-2000).]

 

Hi guys,

i've down a quarter mile "run" against a 911 3.6 250bhp with my MY00 and i've won but with only few inches....

V
Mike.

 

I had a go in a friend’s Carrera 4 about a year ago. On a bend in the rain it started twitching at 70mph, my Impreza would have been rock solid. It frightened me, the engine’s in the wrong place and I didn’t know what was going to happen next. I hate to think what a two wheel drive one would have been like.

There are lots of great things about having a Porsche, but I’ve never subscribed to the idea that driving a car which is difficult to handle is more rewarding than one which handles well.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tommy:
<B>I had a go in a friend’s Carrera 4 about a year ago. On a bend in the rain it started twitching at 70mph, my Impreza would have been rock solid. It frightened me, the engine’s in the wrong place and I didn’t know what was going to happen next. I hate to think what a two wheel drive one would have been like.

There are lots of great things about having a Porsche, but I’ve never subscribed to the idea that driving a car which is difficult to handle is more rewarding than one which handles well. [/quote]

Tommy,

If the engine's in the wrong place, then how come the car has been so successful for so long whilst competing in various motorsports?

If that question is too hard to answer, then answer me this, why do you feel it's in the wrong place?

Countless motoring journalists report that despite the engine sitting BEHIND the rear axle, a 911 feels and behaves like a mid-engined car. Now what would Ron Dennis or Frank Williams say if you told him that an engine in front of the rear axle but behind the driver is also in the wrong place?

 

Come up against a few RS 911s (newish) on track. They are v quick and handle superbly.
Think straightline performance would be similar to a wrx/sti for the last 2 generation 911s.

 

My frend has a 911 carrera targa and I had a drive of it. It was sluggish (IMHO), leaked, rattled, had a bad view of the speedo, handled not too well, was noisy (noise is good as long as its a good noise) and had terrible wind noise everywhere. It just made me all the more happy to get back into my sti and feel secure again. Now I respect Porsche for what the badge stands for and its history, but after driving what was always my childhood dream, the illusion was shattered and I see them as just another sports car. My Scoob on the other hand I look forward to driving everytime and I am always rewarded by the experience. I get a fair bit of hassle from 911 drivers on the road and I have yet to find one that handles as well or is as quick as my impreza. Driver capability is the problem here I guess you are saying? Well, the Porkers always seem to come last. mmmm

Stu

 

Stupot

I also drove a 1988 911 Targa nine months ago (same reputation and second-hand price as my MY98 Scoob) when buying my car and came to exactly the same conclusions as you did. Thought there was something wrong with me/the car at the time; glad to be reassured.

Meanwhile, does anyone recognise this quote?

"Yes, my methods were designed to be deceptive and ulterior in their implementation. If I have truly pissed anyone off as a consequence, then please accept my sincerest apologies.

My presence here at ScoobyNet, as antagonist will not continue, nor will I become a benevolent contributor. I don’t belong here; I have no reason to be here. "



Coat rack's thataway...

BJH

 

Matt,

You're right - the engine behind the rear axle is so succesful a design that myriad other, well respected, sports car manufacturers have emulated it havent they?

Night

 

Matt

I think you've summed it up very well yourself

911 - road car, with the engine in the wrong place that has over the years been thoroughly engineered to feel as though the engine is in the right place, and engineered to allow it to competer in Motorsport

Impreza - race car - all the parts in the right place and with the correct configuration from day 1 that has been detuned for the road.

Paul

 

This is a silly competition. You are asking to compare a rear-engined 2WD Grand Tourer against an AWD front-engined rally-car. There is very little common ground between them. A far fairer test would be against another one of the big GT's. The problem is, it's not guaranteed to win!

Aston Martin V8 Vantage - Hell, even Ferrari's run away from these. Sub-4 to 60, with over 200 at the top end.

Aston Martin DB7 Vantage - Awesome machine. A match for the current 911, with far greater comfort.

Supra TT - Sub-5 to 60, with up to 180 at the top. 1/2 the price of the Porsche, it is a fair match, with close performance to the 911 Turbo, and superior handling.

TVR of any flavour - The Porsche is totally out its depth here. A TVR costing 1/3 of the top Turbo can out-accelerate, out-corner, out-brake, and out-image it.

Ferrari 360 - Performance comparable to Porsche at same price. Handling superior, braking similar, and the Porsche image can in no way even attempt to match the Ferrari one.

Uh, can't think of any more at the mo (I know there are some)

The Porsche is an amazingly competent car, but do not think that it is the best. It isn't. Cars Jap, Italian and British are just as good, if not better.

[This message has been edited by Beef (edited 14-06-2000).]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pnebbs:
<B>Matt

I think you've summed it up very well yourself

911 - road car, with the engine in the wrong place that has over the years been thoroughly engineered to feel as though the engine is in the right place, and engineered to allow it to competer in Motorsport

Impreza - race car - all the parts in the right place and with the correct configuration from day 1 that has been detuned for the road.

Paul[/quote]


Paul,

I mostly agree with your post. My only concern is that you, like others, feel that an engine mounted in the rear is the WRONG configuration. I've always preferred to think of it more as a CHOICE. If Porsche has made it work, as they have exceedingly done so, then might one say it's in the RIGHT place, or was proven to be the CORRECT choice?

Do you think Preston Tucker was WRONG to stuff those helicopter engines into the boot of each of his 50 prototypes? He didn't seem to think so, nor did Ford or GM, who promptly tried to defame the man and eventually defused a new, threatening automotive player.

Ferdinand Porsche was recently named engineer of the century. Why? Well, aside from the cars that bear his name, a car he designed before WWII, a small, bulbous little thing with a rear mounted engine beguiled more than a million people, and is STILL in production, albeit far from Germany!

 

Stu,

Was it a pre-1989 targa you drove? I wouldn't expect the comments you made to appy to a 1994- 993 style car, though I've only been a passenger in the latter.

Driving the classic pre-1989 carrera is a bit of a culture shock, I'd agree. They feel totally archaic in a lot of respects, but at the same time more raw, charismatic and engaging than virtually any other car I've driven. I think that the targa versions suffer most of all from rattles, wind noise, leaking etc.

You have to remember though, that they are a car from a different age to the impreza. Judged purely from the perspective of how they "feel" to drive, and forget pure cross-country speed (for which a scoob would surely murder them), they still hold a place in my heart, and one day I hope to own one for a time.

Just my ramblings anyway.

Gary.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GCollier:
<B>Stu,

Was it a pre-1989 targa you drove? I wouldn't expect the comments you made to appy to a 1994- 993 style car, though I've only been a passenger in the latter.

Driving the classic pre-1989 carrera is a bit of a culture shock, I'd agree. They feel totally archaic in a lot of respects, but at the same time more raw, charismatic and engaging than virtually any other car I've driven. I think that the targa versions suffer most of all from rattles, wind noise, leaking etc.

You have to remember though, that they are a car from a different age to the impreza. Judged purely from the perspective of how they "feel" to drive, and forget pure cross-country speed (for which a scoob would surely murder them), they still hold a place in my heart, and one day I hope to own one for a time.

Just my ramblings anyway.

Gary.[/quote]

Gary,

The TARGA is also notorious for body-flex, a serious issue when mounting an assault on a corner!

As far as an Impreza surely being able to murder a 911 (regardless of vintage) over cross country speeds, I suggest that you take a careful and thorough look at the following site:

 

MPH,

Can you summarise the info in that website or tell me specifically what bits to look at - I don't have time today for extensive surfing on bright red websites which obviously aren't work

I've never driven a pre-89 carrera targa, it was the coupe I drove, but I'll take your word for it on body flex.

Gary.

 

Had a look at the web site couldn't see any Impreza on it.

I remember when the 22B was launched in the UK, a magazine tested one of the first to come in the country. The owner said that his friend had been following him in his 911 (993) Turbo and couldn't keep up. The guy threw his keys on the ground in disgust that his Porsche couldn't keep up with the 22B.

Saying that I'd still have the 993 Turbo over the 22B.
Oh and cross counrty the UK only Impreza P1 is faster than a Ferrari 550, again I'd still take the 550.

Who cares which one is faster, we all love our cars end of story!!

Little aussie smile for Matt



[This message has been edited by Mark Champion (edited 14-06-2000).]

 

My sentiments exactly Mark, which is why I hope to own a 911 one day, regardless of whether scoobs and evo-things can leave it for dead.

 

Gary,
it was a 85 targa. Looks great but like I said, destroyed my childhood dreams. I have since been in a coupe and to be honest... it sucked (IMHO). Im hoping to have a drive in a 328 gts Ferrari soon and I am worried about it not living up to expectations. am I fussy or what!

Stu

 

Hey hey, do not forget that Porsche is doing a lot of suspension work for FHI nowadays, and Subaru promotes their cars by mentioning the similarities in their drivetrain design with the 911C4.
As for speeds in dry conditions, I think they're evenly matched (for a 996C2). Best Motoring 'raced' a 996C2 in Tsukuba 2 years ago and it's lap times are comparable to the STiV, both cars driven by the same driver.

 

Be careful then Stu....you may be about to get some more childhood dreams destroyed! A friend of mine who earns far too much money test drove several ferraris at a dealership, and said they were absolute pigs to drive They'd have to be REALLY bad to put me off though, most beautiful shapes on the road IMHO.

Stu - if you buy a 328, please report back to this board whether "womens knickers left under the wipers, complete with phone number" is an urban myth or not

[This message has been edited by GCollier (edited 14-06-2000).]

 

Blimey Gary I get that already with my scoob!!! Mind u , I think it would be a better class of cacks on a Ferrari... you know, none of this M&S bloomers rubbish
Stu

 

ROFL @ Stu

 

foolishness... I love it

 

The following are extracts from an article written by James May that appeared in the October 1997 of a great British publication: "Classic Cars & Thoroughbreds."

<B> "I have driven several variants of the 911 since the inaugural RS outing, and I've always enjoyed myself. But that first spin sticks in my mind for being the one that allowed me to decide for myself what was 911 fact and what was folklore. So let's have a look at the old scoreboard.

The driving experience? It was never going to be as bad as its detractors would have had me believe, which made it all the more enjoyable when it turned out to be so good.

Victory goes to the reality, and I shouldn't be surprised to realise that I am secretly desirous of a 1990 Carrera 2. I suspect most car enthusiasts covet a 911. So next time you hear a bloke in the pub spouting off about its shortcomings, rest assured. He's probably tanked up on sour grapes." </B>




[This message has been edited by MPH (edited 15-06-2000).]

 

Guys, Matt asked me to come over and back him up from the Porsche board. Seems he started a fire here... So, I'm putting in my $.02 (american).

While the WRX is no doubt, a fantastic car. The engine is obviously sound (a mag here got 300hp out of our model with external mods and turbo tweeks). I gotta say that on pavement, a WRK to a late model wouldn't win.. Given the following.. both cars stock, Same driver on time trials, average temp day (20C).

Of course this is theory, but here goes.
1) center of gravity - WRX is too high and too far forward
2) wind resistance
3) Brakes (and braking balance)
4) Durability (no insult here, I mean temps)

Obviously, a 0 or - deg C day would help the imprezza in a straight line.

I think if you start modifying, anything is possible, so we'll just stay with available models.

Of course you could disagree, but realize that I am not some stupid red-hazed Porschephile. I won my first now, an 87 targa. (yes, it flexes, and the wind noise stinks.. but hey I only paid $13K american)
I do also have about 10 yrs experience amateur racing and instructing. I have to say that the the RSamerica is the most impressive car I have ever been in. Yes, even though it was really designed in 1966.

Now, if you want to talk about old datsun 510's.... they were fun.. slow but fun. Tossable, great brakes, that was a well balanced car.

What I have found is that the 911 is very unsatisfying to drive at less than 7/10ths. after that, it comes alive.. You have to steer with the throttle, and keep the revs up.

Feel free to continue arguing and drag my good name through the mud.. See ya.

P.S. drop by our board to say "hello"

 

I think if you guys felt confident about yourselves and your cars, you wouldn't spend your time on here slamming Porsche. The Porshe record speaks for itself. I've never seen post on the P.C.A. boards slamming other cars, no need to. We are more interested in becoming better drivers and learning more about our Porsches'. Porsche is a true sportscar who's heritage is racing. Not quarter mile rice rockets but true sports cars. My 911SC is worth more today than it was 4 years ago when I purchased it and I know why. Built 19 years ago with front & rear sway bars, the best 4 wheel disk brakes in the world, 3.0 litre race-bred engine, full, race car instruments, etc. Enjoy your cars, learn more about them, become better drivers. Share your knowledge about your cars and leave the bashing off of your board. Just my .02 cents worth......

 

I can not believe we are seriously debating over this. The cars are two totally different beasts!

We are making it seem like the Impreza is a 0-60 contender. Here in North America, this tends to be what distinguishes a 'fast car' AKA 'no replacement for displacement' 5.0 litre mustang...etc...etc.

I also cant believe someone has a problem with the Impreza being able to handle the road well - effectively making a potential poor drive into a good driver. "I want to drive my rear wheel drive, oversteer car and proove how good I can be!" type of attitude.

Well..... Why dont you buy a skateboard and put a 'kin big engine on it. It will handle like a bag of 'sheite, but it will be fast, and if you can get it round the track, man will you be a good driver

Seriously, the Porsche is a phonomenal vehicle. But can it win a rally

The cars are different, plain and simple.

And in typical Forest Gump fashion "Thats all I have to say on that subject"

 

Madbrit..

Hmmm the 911 and variants have won many rallies from Monte Carlo to Paris-Dakar.. Bad choice, Whoops..

Now my humble take on this sad and twisted thread is this

Do you really want to go off backwards into the scenery or get around the corner?

Richard

Oh yeah and any Coffee Cremes in that box?

[This message has been edited by rsquire (edited 15-06-2000).]

 

Bill Carcot

Why do we spend the time on our Board bashing Porsches?????

If you look into the history of this argument, Matt came onto our board and stated that the Impreza is inferior to the 911 and so are its owners, all we are doing is standing up for the Impreza (and ourselves) on our own board and not invading the Porsche board to do our bashing!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>The wrx has its centre of gravity too high and too far forward<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it rather well known that the 911 has its centre of gravity far to close to the back!!!

Paul