TUNING THE NEW 2.5
31 December 2005, 12:14 AM
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TUNING THE NEW 2.5
Been away for a while - had STi PPP 03 - what are the power options with PPP, WRC and similar tuners for new 2.5 - assuming this is better base from which to start (WRC 350 on 03 was pretty good)
Anybody offering over 370 lb ft with new 2.5 for modest outlay?
Anybody offering over 370 lb ft with new 2.5 for modest outlay?
31 December 2005, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyBurns
You can get 370lbs of torque out of the JDM cars, still a 2ltr and more drivable than the 2.5 
Tony
Tony
31 December 2005, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by R19KET
Rubbish........ if the 2.0lt is more "drivable", then the 2.5lt hasn't been put together correctly, either in using the right parts, or in setting up ! Mark.
Tony
31 December 2005, 01:57 PM
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err - didnt wish to start a debate..
I rather hoped that the NEW production STi 2.5 might well be easily tunable to 400 ft lb whilst offering broader torque and better off boost luggability (torque!)
I NEED an inexpensive torque monter scooby - or i will just have to go and try and slot an alloy 305 chevy into something unsuspecting.
Nice LS2 would be a good starter for 450+ ft lb (no, not in a scooby) if no one can extract 400 ft lb from a scooby for sensible money
Surely WRC or TSL could do it - I see WRC offer 400 on 2 litre - but who wants to spend £8k on a used Scooby?! - New 500 ft lb V8 is less than that , and with the Scooby - WE supply the engine!!
I NEED an inexpensive torque monter scooby - or i will just have to go and try and slot an alloy 305 chevy into something unsuspecting.
Nice LS2 would be a good starter for 450+ ft lb (no, not in a scooby) if no one can extract 400 ft lb from a scooby for sensible money
Surely WRC or TSL could do it - I see WRC offer 400 on 2 litre - but who wants to spend £8k on a used Scooby?! - New 500 ft lb V8 is less than that , and with the Scooby - WE supply the engine!!
31 December 2005, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyBurns
The JDM 2ltr is a better engine than the 2.5, period
Tony
Tony
Tony, you are basing your knowledge on the home brew / DIY USDM 2.5 blocks that the majority of people have been throwing together in the last few years. The new 2.5 from Subaru will be far better to drive than any 2.0 litre and the tuning potential is there with a correctly matched package i.e. the correct heads etc.
Griff, I would expect to see a stonking road car with the new 2.5, 450ft'bs here you come
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31 December 2005, 02:31 PM
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now then
thats more like it ....
all i ask for is an easy 400 ft lb with minimal lag and v broad power band at a sensible price
and if thats too easy - please throw in an Audi style DSG gearbox to eliminate lag and radically drop acceleration times - cos of close ratio sprint box, we all spend far too much time with the engine disconnected from tranny or it lumbering back onto boost - ok may only be 1/2 sec per change but how many changes do you make to 100 - then what is the saved time as a percentage - a lot isnt it? - Enough to cost prob £2k in tuning to achieve?!
400 ft lb and a DSG shift - you dont need more for the road! (well not much more..)
all i ask for is an easy 400 ft lb with minimal lag and v broad power band at a sensible price
and if thats too easy - please throw in an Audi style DSG gearbox to eliminate lag and radically drop acceleration times - cos of close ratio sprint box, we all spend far too much time with the engine disconnected from tranny or it lumbering back onto boost - ok may only be 1/2 sec per change but how many changes do you make to 100 - then what is the saved time as a percentage - a lot isnt it? - Enough to cost prob £2k in tuning to achieve?!
400 ft lb and a DSG shift - you dont need more for the road! (well not much more..)
31 December 2005, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Conrad_Bradley
Tony, you are basing your knowledge on the home brew / DIY USDM 2.5 blocks that the majority of people have been throwing together in the last few years. The new 2.5 from Subaru will be far better to drive than any 2.0 litre and the tuning potential is there with a correctly matched package i.e. the correct heads etc.
Griff, I would expect to see a stonking road car with the new 2.5, 450ft'bs here you come
Griff, I would expect to see a stonking road car with the new 2.5, 450ft'bs here you come
31 December 2005, 02:34 PM
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It's funny that the japs have retained the 2 litre engine for the JDM car. They normally keep the best bits for themselves, so why aren't they using the new 2.5 litre if it's so good????
31 December 2005, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GRIFF007
Like Powerstations Tuner GP variant..
Let's see what Prodrive come up with first
31 December 2005, 03:15 PM
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If its anything like the USDM 2.5 ( which i think it is ) Its a pile of crap. The usdm 2.5 was the worse thing i did to mine 
They can't take alot more than 350bhp. Also heard a rumour that Prodrive have been testing the 2.5, and guess what happens to the pistons at 350bhp 
For tuning purposes's stick with the 2litre or a 'real' 2.5 conversion
They can't take alot more than 350bhp. Also heard a rumour that Prodrive have been testing the 2.5, and guess what happens to the pistons at 350bhp For tuning purposes's stick with the 2litre or a 'real' 2.5 conversion
31 December 2005, 03:23 PM
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depends what you expect, there's no reason for it to be stronger than any other production variant bottom end, yet people somehow expect them to make 500bhp??
as a good base engine and (relatively) cheap way of getting a good daily driver then i personally think they are fairly top quality, however, you need to have a good hard think of what you want to achieve and how!!
compared to a similiar spec 2.0 car using the same ancillaries/turbo/etc.) then they will make similiar power (sometimes slightly less if using a small std'ish size turbo) but will spool around 1000-1300rpm earlier with a big slug of torque that most 2.0 builds can only dream off..............
but, they aren't as revvy as a JDM STi 2.0 style engine and therefore have a different lazy driving style which doesn't always suit peoples expectations!!
alyn
as a good base engine and (relatively) cheap way of getting a good daily driver then i personally think they are fairly top quality, however, you need to have a good hard think of what you want to achieve and how!!
compared to a similiar spec 2.0 car using the same ancillaries/turbo/etc.) then they will make similiar power (sometimes slightly less if using a small std'ish size turbo) but will spool around 1000-1300rpm earlier with a big slug of torque that most 2.0 builds can only dream off..............
but, they aren't as revvy as a JDM STi 2.0 style engine and therefore have a different lazy driving style which doesn't always suit peoples expectations!!
alyn
31 December 2005, 04:23 PM
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WRC regulations specify a 2.0, so that's what they have to sell in at least one market.
In Europe, the Euro IV emissions standard has (or is about to) become mandatory, and the only way to keep the power up to previous levels while still meeting the emissions requirement is to increase the engine capacity. That's why Europe gets the 2.5 litre engine, and why it's not significantly more powerful than the 2.0.
In Europe, the Euro IV emissions standard has (or is about to) become mandatory, and the only way to keep the power up to previous levels while still meeting the emissions requirement is to increase the engine capacity. That's why Europe gets the 2.5 litre engine, and why it's not significantly more powerful than the 2.0.
31 December 2005, 06:14 PM
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Dont forget its still the same block as the USDM and the same pistons, the only variance being that its got the correct heads and other ancills.
The pistons will still crack ringlands when used hard and the liners are very thin in high boost applications. I would of thought that with the correct head on board the headgasket issue would go away but you never know. Ian who posted above, who builds & sells Type 25's has extensive knowledge of the 2.5 block and its problems.
Personally, I stick with a relinered block at 2.5 litres if you want it to remain reliable.
The pistons will still crack ringlands when used hard and the liners are very thin in high boost applications. I would of thought that with the correct head on board the headgasket issue would go away but you never know. Ian who posted above, who builds & sells Type 25's has extensive knowledge of the 2.5 block and its problems.
Personally, I stick with a relinered block at 2.5 litres if you want it to remain reliable.
01 January 2006, 12:39 PM
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One way to go to make a very strong 2.33 is to reliner a closed deck 2l block. The addition of a 2.5 crank then gives you a 2.33.
They are very strong blocks and can make very, very powerful cars.
Rannoch
They are very strong blocks and can make very, very powerful cars.
Rannoch
01 January 2006, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
One way to go to make a very strong 2.33 is to reliner a closed deck 2l block. The addition of a 2.5 crank then gives you a 2.33.
They are very strong blocks and can make very, very powerful cars.
Rannoch
They are very strong blocks and can make very, very powerful cars.
Rannoch
Did u know it is cheaper to fully re-build and tune an AJP lightweight flatplane v8 4.5 litre alloy mill - paying retail to the manufacturer than to do a std rebuild the flat 4 which is basically a glorified Beetle engine! (in the nicest possible way..)
If Jap cars are so cheap out there why are we being ripped off for parts and mods in UK - anyone tried researching Japland for Scooby tuners for exchange crate motors (a 6 litre Chevy crate motor with 500bhp only costs c £3k in Yankydoodleland..) - I dont understand anyone forking out over £5k for a lightly modded flat 4...!
Time for some research - the US crate motors are easy enough to get hold of, why should Japland be any different?
Engage oriental speak mode..
01 January 2006, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GRIFF007
sounds a good compromise to work from - anyone do this for sensible money?
Did u know it is cheaper to fully re-build and tune an AJP lightweight flatplane v8 4.5 litre alloy mill - paying retail to the manufacturer than to do a std rebuild the flat 4 which is basically a glorified Beetle engine! (in the nicest possible way..)
If Jap cars are so cheap out there why are we being ripped off for parts and mods in UK - anyone tried researching Japland for Scooby tuners for exchange crate motors (a 6 litre Chevy crate motor with 500bhp only costs c £3k in Yankydoodleland..) - I dont understand anyone forking out over £5k for a lightly modded flat 4...!
Time for some research - the US crate motors are easy enough to get hold of, why should Japland be any different?
Engage oriental speak mode..
Did u know it is cheaper to fully re-build and tune an AJP lightweight flatplane v8 4.5 litre alloy mill - paying retail to the manufacturer than to do a std rebuild the flat 4 which is basically a glorified Beetle engine! (in the nicest possible way..)
If Jap cars are so cheap out there why are we being ripped off for parts and mods in UK - anyone tried researching Japland for Scooby tuners for exchange crate motors (a 6 litre Chevy crate motor with 500bhp only costs c £3k in Yankydoodleland..) - I dont understand anyone forking out over £5k for a lightly modded flat 4...!
Time for some research - the US crate motors are easy enough to get hold of, why should Japland be any different?
Engage oriental speak mode..
Government's fault for allowing the bullsh1t inflation and over pricing in the UK.
01 January 2006, 06:52 PM
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Evos seem a bit cheaper to tune. The iron block can take serious abuse, and the 4G63 has been around for ages with cheap uprated and stoker internals available. Stock turbo is also more capable, and the intercooler is in the right place. Short manifold.
01 January 2006, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by robsw
I love the V8 engine (being a bit of a pod regular), and I was very imppressed by how cheap they are to buy, definately feel a V8 project coming on one day!
.
.
01 January 2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Conrad_Bradley
Dont forget its still the same block as the USDM and the same pistons, the only variance being that its got the correct heads and other ancills.
The pistons will still crack ringlands when used hard and the liners are very thin in high boost applications. I would of thought that with the correct head on board the headgasket issue would go away but you never know. Ian who posted above, who builds & sells Type 25's has extensive knowledge of the 2.5 block and its problems.
Personally, I stick with a relinered block at 2.5 litres if you want it to remain reliable.
The pistons will still crack ringlands when used hard and the liners are very thin in high boost applications. I would of thought that with the correct head on board the headgasket issue would go away but you never know. Ian who posted above, who builds & sells Type 25's has extensive knowledge of the 2.5 block and its problems.
Personally, I stick with a relinered block at 2.5 litres if you want it to remain reliable.
A 400/400 conversion for the 2.5 Sti should be available for under £3k
My VFM choice would be the WRX though, £16k from Litchfields, add a few select mods then 350/350 with a _v e r y_ wide power band should be available for £2.5k where else can you get this sort of performance in a new car for under £20k !!!
Andy
01 January 2006, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GRIFF007
any thoughts as to what the lucky recipient may be?- years ago i was going to put one in a 944 turbo silver rose - have all the manuals.. - chickened out and got a Griff!
God help the ozone if I ever come in to some serious money!!!
02 January 2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
For 400/400 the std 2.5 should be more than adequate. Have a read up on www.nasioc.com for some 500whp std internals units.
A 400/400 conversion for the 2.5 Sti should be available for under £3k
My VFM choice would be the WRX though, £16k from Litchfields, add a few select mods then 350/350 with a _v e r y_ wide power band should be available for £2.5k where else can you get this sort of performance in a new car for under £20k !!!
Andy
A 400/400 conversion for the 2.5 Sti should be available for under £3k
My VFM choice would be the WRX though, £16k from Litchfields, add a few select mods then 350/350 with a _v e r y_ wide power band should be available for £2.5k where else can you get this sort of performance in a new car for under £20k !!!
Andy
Both you and Conrad are engine modders - so why the huge difference in opinion on the 2.5 bottom end?
Presumably the WRX bottom end is even more lowly (is it 2 or 2.5?)
400/400 for less than £3k upgrade sounds sensible to me - any suppliers?
02 January 2006, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GRIFF007
Now thats the sort of news i like to hear - both options - nice to see someone not talking in telephone number cost mods - can you please paste exact link for USA article - not found it on their site yet?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862170
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=902268
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=831998
Remember these are wheel horsepower figures !
Originally Posted by GRIFF007
Both you and Conrad are engine modders - so why the huge difference in opinion on the 2.5 bottom end??
Originally Posted by GRIFF007
Presumably the WRX bottom end is even more lowly (is it 2 or 2.5?)
Originally Posted by GRIFF007
400/400 for less than £3k upgrade sounds sensible to me - any suppliers?
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