Trumble

All,

I'm torn - I not having any luck selling my MY06 STI so I feel the need to more power.

The question is do I go for PPP or the upgrade available at powerstation. Clearly there are swings and roundabouts here.

The first offers warranty retention - but the second offers more power.

I cant find a dealer near me with a PPP MY06 STI so would be interested to see if anyone has compared the two above.

cheers

T.

GazTheHat

The PPP does give the warranty retention, but doesn't Powerstation offer a comprehensive warranty too? I'd check that out. If so, it's a no-brainer, powerstation all the way...

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, i noticed the comprehensive warranty thing on their website. is that a warranty on the parts supplied or a warranty on the engine, transmission, diffs etc. I can't really believe the later??

Tony.

Bartop

I'm going there tomorrow for a turbo and remap and will be asking them this very question
Can update you afterwards

Trumble

I called them - its 12 months parts and labour on the engine.

I'll try to explain - but expect I'll be corrected somewhere along the line by someone from PS.

If there is a component failure on one of the components they fit then that would be covered. If the engine fails and it is attributed to the remap then that would be covered.

As an example if an external hose cracks then it would not be covered.

Whether or not suvbaru would then cover it - who knows - I personally doubt it as they use every wriggle not to pay.

As far as I can see you pays your money and takes your chance.

Having read other posts by mike wood, it does sound like the PPP is a very conservative increase in performance / torque where as the PS one is much more.

Views ?

T.

Edward

Another thing to bear in mind:

PPP = Higher value when you come to sell / trade in.
Other power increasing modifications = Lower value.

I have a MY06 Sti and have found a dealer who will do the PPP for £1585 inc. VAT and fitting.

I could save around £500 buying my own fuel pump, exhaust and remap but I'm confident I'll get more than £500 back going down the PPP route compared to modifying it myself when I sell the car.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

PPP is good value for money because of the Warranty, it will improve performance and bring some burble back (albeit a bit to quiet for my taste) And PPP really should be your only choice IMHO

I went to Powerstation Today excellent service Mine is a JDM MY06 STi 2.0ltr but even at 322.9 BHP felt and sounded very bland

They absolutely transformed my Car with a remap a Miltek exhaust it is now awesome, got a 349.9Bhp , 459.2 Nm @ 3810rpm even though it only gained 27Bhp

I can't sing powestations Praises enough

More Power, big grins and Warrranty verses More Power, bigger grins and slightly more growl................Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Sorry not helping am I

Tony

WRX_Rich

iTrader: (5)

if you choose to go for remap etc I would advise you also add the cost of a boost gauge and a knocklink if nothing else

if your thowing the warranty away at least know the cars working how it should

KiwiGTI

What's the absolute worst case for a lack of warranty?

For example, what would it cost to replace or rebuild an STI engine or gearbox?

ex-webby

T5NYW,

Once fettled, those JDM cars go like stink don't they.

Regards,
Shaun.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Shaun,

They certainly do has really put the smile back on my face

Regards,

Tony

Martin2005

Well I'll find that out tomorrow when Iain L delivers my Type 25....it's gonna be a sleepless night

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Martin,

I saw a new T25 fell off the ramp today what colour was yours ??











Only joking, have a good nightmare, I mean sleep

Regards

Tony

Martin2005

It's not new, it's a year old.... do you think I'm made of money

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

LOL must have been the one in the blue one in the corner with grey PFF7's Anyway back on Topic

Agreed

I really rate Powerstations work, they made a superb job of my JDM Car

But if i owned a UK car athough my heart would say Powerstation my Brain would say PPP

You guys have paid paid for a UK car with 3 year Warranty, sorry PPP is a no brainer. IMHO

Tony

Trumble

Tony

I know what you are saying - but 1700 quid for a back box, fuel pump and remap is taking the p!ss.

T.

MikeWood

Trumble

With the greatest respect, you are falling into the trap of looking at the component costs and missing the work that has gone into developing the product. Unless I'm very much mistaken, I don't think anyone other than us has done a significant amount of work on 06MY cars that aren't customer's cars and therefore hasn't made the huge amount of investment in the learning about and development of packages for these cars that we have. That's why Subaru UK still offer a comprehensive warranty on the cars.

Mike

Bob Rawle

Trumble actually thats pretty much the going rate, the PPP cost's used to take the p1ss but seems Prodrive are following the market these days.

Custom mapping is always going to be better though .. lol

bob

Trumble

Mike

Trust me - I fully appreciate R&D costs of a building a new product.

However - I pesonally feel that 1700 quid is a bit much. I cant believe it takes more than a couple of hours to swap a back box, ecu and fuel pump, for which I would expect to be stung 150-180 quid. (I feel confident saying that as I did the back box on my STI 06 in 15 mins and that included finding the ramps in the shed.)

So flame suit on:

250 for back box (I'm just guessing)
100 for fuel pump
180 for fitting above + ECU

530 total.

which leaves 1170.

I guess the question is all about R&D and ROI - I'll say no more on that.

But - I still am undecided on which to go for

T

bigknd

Also the centre section is changed as well

Not much in it between Powerstation £1600 + VAT = £1880 (330bhp 330lbs)

or £1700 for PPP. (320bhp 330lbs)

I only chose PPP as I do a lot of traveling around and if I ever broke down would like to still have the peace of mind of Subaru Assist wherever in the country I am at the time

Have had work done by Powerstation on my old MY04 WRX and can't recommend them enough either

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

600 EcuTek licence and remap
320 for back box
150 centre section
100 for fuel pump
180 for fitting above
50 for postage
1400 total.

Probably a little closer

IMHO

Tony

marklemac

I can't rate Powerstation enough.

Its a 2.5 hr trip to get there from where I live, but well worth it.

They've transformed my MY02 STI

LitchfieldImports

Mike I think it’s fair to say that Powerstation, like yourselves, have done a fair amount of R&D on the 2.5 engine inside and out As you know we’ve had these engines and cars since 2003

Iain

p1doc

does that mean you had the engines nearly 3 years before prodrive started their research!
martin
ps can i have my free t25 now!

MikeWood

Iain

All good points, you and Powerstation have indeed been working with the 2.5 bottom end for some time with great results. The point I was trying to make though is that it's simply not possible to buy the software and expect to be able to map the car perfectly on a customer's car in a day like some people seem to believe can happen. You and Powerstation have spent months (more like years!!) working on this sort of thing because it isn't easy to do if you want to do it properly.

The 06MY cars have a new spec of ECU that is quite different to previous versions with it now having a fly-by-wire throttle, secondary air system and ignition control system which is new, even to the guys that have been putting 2.5 bottom ends in JDM cars.


Bob

I agree that custom mapping will be better, but will each individual cutomer pay for their car to be mapped in all the conditions he's likely to see? It's simply not possible to cover all the bases in the limited time a customer is prepared to pay for and with the best will in the world, whilst it make give a perfect result on the day, it may not be able to cope with changing conditions. What happens when he has to use a different fuel or the air temperature changes or the humidity changes and it overboosts or he sits in a traffic jam and then wants to use all the performance (drag strip styleee...) or he takes it on holiday to the Alps and the air pressure is much lower or it's now -10C or he's driving down the motorway and sucks something into the intercooler or radiator that blocks the airflow? We've covered all these bases and it all takes time to do. We've also got National Type Approval which is a first for any such conversion.

With the fixed mechanical spec of our cars, 'custom' mapping is not necessary as it's designed to cope with all conceivable conditions and operate safely. Where it is necessary is when you've got a mechanical spec that differs from that which the ECU is calibrated for such as a different exhaust or intake system.

To pick up on another thread with reference to exhausts on the 06MY STI, we did a test on a very well known dyno that most people feel produces accurate and certainly repeatable figures. First we ran the car with a particular spec of PPP that included a revised downpipe along with a similar 2.5" system to what we've used previously. The power was over 350bhp (which was nice ) but it was only running about 10% wastegate duty around peak power to achieve the desired boost. In order to see what would happen if the ECU was to try to reduce the boost in order to cope with any of the scenarios above, we blanked off the atmosphere side of the boost solenoid so that it ran at 'actuator' pressure, nominally 0.7-0.8Bar. Obviously torque was massively down but power was still over 330bhp with boost creep back to about 1.0Bar and this was with a system that would have had more back pressure than a 3" system. More work required........

Regards

Mike

Trumble

Mike - a most interesting reply - can you comment on the spec of the MY06 PPP - is it just a backbox or does the center cat get replaced ?

It is unclear from the pdf in one of the other threads which states

"Stainless steel sports exhaust silencers"

thanks

T.

T.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Great to hear the experts comments on here.

My only comment -purely as a consumer- would be: what if the poster wanted to sell the car within 3 years? This seems quite likely since he was already thinking of getting shot of it at the time of posting. The the PPP would be the best option in this scenario, or he'd be looking at trying to sell a car that people would expect to be covered by a comprehensive warranty with either a less comprehensive, or no warranty. This would have an adverse effect on its value.

Ns04

zakster

Its great that Mike Wood is giving us all this info,maybe he could explain why if all your ppp packs are tested through numerous operating conditions why I have never ever known a v.7. u.k. STI with ppp to make anywhere near the 300 bhp mark this also includes the reliable rolling road set up he previosly mentions as being accurate,I look forward to your response like many v.7. owners will be.

MikeWood

Trumble

The short centre pipe with the cat in is replaced with a small silencer. On the WRX we still managed to meet Euro 4 emissions as well as noise limits.


zakster

Firstly, we didn't do a performance package for V7 STi as there was no STi outside Japan in 2001MY. I assume that you are talking about 02MY STi which should be V8. I didn't state that we felt that the figures this particular dyno produces are accurate, I said that "most people feel produces accurate and certainly repeatable figures". I our opinion, no rolling road dyno can produce truly accurate figures for all cars, all they can do is provide an estimate of what's happening at the flywheel based on what's being recorded at the wheels.

As I've stated on many occasions, getting the power is not that difficult, the bit that takes the time and in depth understanding is making sure that it's safe in all the conditions the car is likely to be used in. One condition that occurs when the car is tested on a rolling road is reduced cooling airflow compared to what it will see on the road and inevitably power output can be slightly down in these conditions unless absolutely everything is done to make sure the conditions are the same as encountered on the road. When we test on a rolling road we make sure that none of the safety strategies we have put into the ECU are not being invoked such as the boost limiting against intake and water temperatures. As most rolling road operators don't even monitor these in the ECU during the runs as they haven't got the time on dyno days, never mind know what we've mapped in, I guess that a significant numbers of cars will run into these limits unknowingly. Remember that we don't aim for dyno figures, they are far too often just used for bragging down the pub although we do appreciate that these may be the only measure of performance that most people are likely to see from their cars. What we do feel is more important is that the car will cope with everything that can be thrown at it whilst still retaining the best performance possible for the longest period of time.

Bearing in mind the criticism we've had in the past for this approach, with the 06MY packages we did a fairly extensive test program that included visiting several dynos with the various cars over a couple of days and a couple of others a week later with the STi on it's own. From the logs we got from the runs we were happy that the cars did the same thing on each dyno (except one where the boost and mass airlow achieved were slightly down on what happens on the road) and the figures achieved were over the numbers that we quote except for just one run which was very slightly less. The numbers did however vary somewhat, the best being more than 20bhp and 40lbft higher than we quote

Hope this helps

Regards

Mike

Trumble

Thanks Mike, are you saying it is only swapped on the WRX or both STI and WRX ?

I would also say I found your information on the fly by wire accelerator really interesting.

thanks

T