Stupid stupid stupid
27 July 2006, 05:44 PM
#1
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Stupid stupid stupid
If you are stopped at a red light and an ambulance turns up behind you, you don't have to go through the red light. If it's safe and you want to then fine but it's your choice.
Right.
Main set of traffic lights (middle of Leigh), about 1am, 3 lanes with a car stopped in each. I drive up behind them, briefly put my sirens on to make sure they notice I'm there, then turn them off just leaving the flashing blues on and I stay well back so not to intimidate anyone into doing something silly.
Little boy in noisy blacked out Corsa decides to run the red.
Fair enough, it was safe, I didn't force him, not a problem.
He then drove at about 60mph down Spinning Jenny Way (30 limit) and ran another red without braking. When he got round the corner near the police station a couple of cars had pulled over and some were coming the other way so he had to stop.
I went past and he flew out behind me, tailgated me, occasionally nipping out to the side so I saw him but didn't know what he was trying to do.
As he was driving like such a **** I had to pull over and let him go past me.
He delayed an ambulance on an emergency call because he chose to drive like a ********.
Stupid stupid stupid.
What's more stupid is I don't think he realised that his number plate was visible and that I was able to radio our control with his details which have now been given to the police.
If by some chance he reads this forum, you know who you are arsehole, either I or some of my colleagues should have the pleasure of cutting you out of your car fairly soon.
Sorry for the rant, it annoyed me a little.
Right.
Main set of traffic lights (middle of Leigh), about 1am, 3 lanes with a car stopped in each. I drive up behind them, briefly put my sirens on to make sure they notice I'm there, then turn them off just leaving the flashing blues on and I stay well back so not to intimidate anyone into doing something silly.
Little boy in noisy blacked out Corsa decides to run the red.
Fair enough, it was safe, I didn't force him, not a problem.
He then drove at about 60mph down Spinning Jenny Way (30 limit) and ran another red without braking. When he got round the corner near the police station a couple of cars had pulled over and some were coming the other way so he had to stop.
I went past and he flew out behind me, tailgated me, occasionally nipping out to the side so I saw him but didn't know what he was trying to do.
As he was driving like such a **** I had to pull over and let him go past me.
He delayed an ambulance on an emergency call because he chose to drive like a ********.
Stupid stupid stupid.
What's more stupid is I don't think he realised that his number plate was visible and that I was able to radio our control with his details which have now been given to the police.
If by some chance he reads this forum, you know who you are arsehole, either I or some of my colleagues should have the pleasure of cutting you out of your car fairly soon.
Sorry for the rant, it annoyed me a little.
27 July 2006, 07:44 PM
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If you are stopped at a red light and an ambulance turns up behind you, you don't have to go through the red light. If it's safe and you want to then fine but it's your choice.
The only reason i ask is for the traffic lights that have red light cameras on them.
On two occasions on two seperate days, and funnily enough at the same traffic lights, i happened to be first in line to move for an ambulance whilst sat at a red light. I moved out of the way but wondered afterwards where i would stand if i got caught by the camera going through the red light?
Would you actually, or could you actually get fined for that?
PS, i have not received any penalty, so one would assume the answer is no, but i am curious i must say.
27 July 2006, 08:51 PM
#5
Recent court cases show that facilitating the passage of an emergency vehicle is not regarded as a valid defence to a prosecution brought with evidence obtained by a red-light camera.
27 July 2006, 08:56 PM
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Don't know about that, have asked some police colleagues and waiting for a reply.
The highway code says:
194: Emergency vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights, headlights or sirens. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but do not endanger other road users.
So that's pull over and STOP, not pull over and trundle so we have more difficulty judging the gap in the traffic. It's a diesel van, not a bloody sports car, it doesn't go that fast!
A Met Police website (http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/courses.htm) states:
Although police and other emergency vehicles have legal exemptions from certain traffic regulations, the use of warning equipment does NOT give an Emergency vehicle the right of way but merely alerts members of the public to its presence and that it is responding to an urgent matter.
But then there's this.. (http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/new..._ambulance.asp)
Clearing the road for an ambulance … that'll be three points and a £60 fine
Daily Mail, Friday July 15, 2005
By Adam Powell
Mark Freeman thought he was doing his duty when he pulled over to let an ambulance pass on a 999 call. Unfortunately, the manoeuvre took him through a red traffic light – and a strategically placed camera snapped him in the process.
The wheels of justice then began to turn and nothing he could say in his defence was enough to halt them.
The railway maintenance worker ended up with a £60 fine, a £35 bill for costs, three penalty points on his licence and £300 loss on wages for time spent on three court appearances.
“I'm disgusted,” he said last night. “I can't see what else I could have done. If there was someone seriously ill or dying and I stopped the ambulance, would I have been held responsible?”
Mr Freeman, 36, instinctively drove forward when he saw the ambulance in his mirror as he drove through his home town of Doncaster. Its blue lights were flashing and its siren sounding. It was going to the aid of someone with breathing difficulties, it emerged later.
Unable to move into the nearside lane because of traffic, he went through the lights as they turned red and pulled over on the other side.
He received a letter saying he would then be prosecuted. When the married father-of-five tried to explain the incident to the South Yorkshire Safety Camera Partnership his words fell on deaf ears.
The matter was referred to the town's magistrates court where Mr Freeman appeared to plead his case. After three appearances he was advised by the court clerk that he should change his plea to guilty.
“I was told by the clerk I had little chance of winning and if it went to trial it would have cost me huge legal fees,” he said. “The law is barmy and it should be changed. Moving was the only course of action I had.”
A spokesman for the partnership said: “There is a system in place for motorists who feel they have extenuating circumstances – they can opt to take their case to a court of law. If magistrates agree the circumstances are valid, the appeal would be upheld. If Mr Freeman decided to change his position and plead guilty to the offence, that is a matter for him.”
Kevin Delaney, of the RAC Foundation, said the law was unequivocal and he regretfully would advise any motorist not to go through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle to pass. “There should be an exemption in the law to deal with this or some discretion exercised by the courts,” he said. “But sadly it does not happen.”
South Yorkshire Ambulance Trust spokesman Sue Cooper said: “It is regrettable that a motorist who gave way to an emergency vehicle has been in court. But the Trust has every confidence in the legal process and the advice given in the Highway Code.”
A spokesman for ambulance drivers union Unison said: “I'm sure Mr Freeman thought he was doing the right thing, but drivers are trained for these circumstances and he should have stopped at the light.”
Mr Freeman, who will also count the cost in higher insurance premiums, said: “Motorists today just can't win.”
Will let you know when I have a clearer answer.
The highway code says:
194: Emergency vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights, headlights or sirens. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of the emergency vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but do not endanger other road users.
So that's pull over and STOP, not pull over and trundle so we have more difficulty judging the gap in the traffic. It's a diesel van, not a bloody sports car, it doesn't go that fast!
A Met Police website (http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/courses.htm) states:
Although police and other emergency vehicles have legal exemptions from certain traffic regulations, the use of warning equipment does NOT give an Emergency vehicle the right of way but merely alerts members of the public to its presence and that it is responding to an urgent matter.
But then there's this.. (http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/new..._ambulance.asp)
Clearing the road for an ambulance … that'll be three points and a £60 fine
Daily Mail, Friday July 15, 2005
By Adam Powell
Mark Freeman thought he was doing his duty when he pulled over to let an ambulance pass on a 999 call. Unfortunately, the manoeuvre took him through a red traffic light – and a strategically placed camera snapped him in the process.
The wheels of justice then began to turn and nothing he could say in his defence was enough to halt them.
The railway maintenance worker ended up with a £60 fine, a £35 bill for costs, three penalty points on his licence and £300 loss on wages for time spent on three court appearances.
“I'm disgusted,” he said last night. “I can't see what else I could have done. If there was someone seriously ill or dying and I stopped the ambulance, would I have been held responsible?”
Mr Freeman, 36, instinctively drove forward when he saw the ambulance in his mirror as he drove through his home town of Doncaster. Its blue lights were flashing and its siren sounding. It was going to the aid of someone with breathing difficulties, it emerged later.
Unable to move into the nearside lane because of traffic, he went through the lights as they turned red and pulled over on the other side.
He received a letter saying he would then be prosecuted. When the married father-of-five tried to explain the incident to the South Yorkshire Safety Camera Partnership his words fell on deaf ears.
The matter was referred to the town's magistrates court where Mr Freeman appeared to plead his case. After three appearances he was advised by the court clerk that he should change his plea to guilty.
“I was told by the clerk I had little chance of winning and if it went to trial it would have cost me huge legal fees,” he said. “The law is barmy and it should be changed. Moving was the only course of action I had.”
A spokesman for the partnership said: “There is a system in place for motorists who feel they have extenuating circumstances – they can opt to take their case to a court of law. If magistrates agree the circumstances are valid, the appeal would be upheld. If Mr Freeman decided to change his position and plead guilty to the offence, that is a matter for him.”
Kevin Delaney, of the RAC Foundation, said the law was unequivocal and he regretfully would advise any motorist not to go through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle to pass. “There should be an exemption in the law to deal with this or some discretion exercised by the courts,” he said. “But sadly it does not happen.”
South Yorkshire Ambulance Trust spokesman Sue Cooper said: “It is regrettable that a motorist who gave way to an emergency vehicle has been in court. But the Trust has every confidence in the legal process and the advice given in the Highway Code.”
A spokesman for ambulance drivers union Unison said: “I'm sure Mr Freeman thought he was doing the right thing, but drivers are trained for these circumstances and he should have stopped at the light.”
Mr Freeman, who will also count the cost in higher insurance premiums, said: “Motorists today just can't win.”
Will let you know when I have a clearer answer.
Last edited by Tuts bird; 27 July 2006 at 09:05 PM.
27 July 2006, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by theotherphil
Recent court cases show that facilitating the passage of an emergency vehicle is not regarded as a valid defence to a prosecution brought with evidence obtained by a red-light camera.
I am a bit reluctant to give way to police cars , as more likely than not they are on a coffee and donut emergency!
. .Ambulances are a different issue . N.B . .The kid is unlikely to read this forum . . Its unlikely he can read at all!
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27 July 2006, 09:05 PM
#8
Originally Posted by theotherphil
Recent court cases show that facilitating the passage of an emergency vehicle is not regarded as a valid defence to a prosecution brought with evidence obtained by a red-light camera.
The b@stards will try to screw you so do not jump a red light.
27 July 2006, 10:11 PM
#9
Originally Posted by WRX300MAN
And that is quite disturbing . . .
I am a bit reluctant to give way to police cars , as more likely than not they are on a coffee and donut emergency! . .Ambulances are a different issue .
N.B . .The kid is unlikely to read this forum . . Its unlikely he can read at all!
I am a bit reluctant to give way to police cars , as more likely than not they are on a coffee and donut emergency!
. .Ambulances are a different issue . N.B . .The kid is unlikely to read this forum . . Its unlikely he can read at all!
27 July 2006, 11:26 PM
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us as drivers ( and those of us with a degree of social concience i mean not 'corsa boy' ) dont know that, and i for one treat all ambulances on a blue light run as being in an emergency to save one and get out of their way if at all possible, lucky ive never been caught by a camera i spose
27 July 2006, 11:27 PM
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It is true, I have it on good authority it is ok to go through a red light to let blue light vehicle through. Quite common knowledge I presumed.
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
28 July 2006, 07:30 AM
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Tbh i would never mount the kerb for anything, blue lights or not. But i am now clearer on the red light issue, and unfortunately i will never pass a red light again for anything now. But that will be mostly camera ones though.
It aint worth it is it? I cannot believe you can be prosecuted for that. Surely the photo evidence will show the vehicle with "blues and twos" on behind the offending car? Anyway, thanks for all the info.
It aint worth it is it? I cannot believe you can be prosecuted for that. Surely the photo evidence will show the vehicle with "blues and twos" on behind the offending car? Anyway, thanks for all the info.
28 July 2006, 07:42 AM
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Tuts bird ... as a professional driver id like to know your opinion on drivers going through red lights to aid emergency vehicles with there progress. The reason i ask is because a few months ago i was in an awkward position whereby i was stopped at some traffic lights when a police car approached from behind with its blues and twos on. Now the lights were red and had only been red for a few seconds, knowing this junction well i knew we were going to be sat there another 20secs, so i looked carefully and pulled moved about 10foot into the junction and pulled over into the nearside lane to allow the police car through ... police car went past and that was that.
I later found out its illegal to push thru a red light to aid emergency vehicles and have red plenty of stories of ppl being given points for doing exactly what i had done which kinda makes me feel sick.
I later found out its illegal to push thru a red light to aid emergency vehicles and have red plenty of stories of ppl being given points for doing exactly what i had done which kinda makes me feel sick.
28 July 2006, 10:41 AM
#14
If you don't feel comfortable in moving through a red light then don't. In the majority of cases, we can go around you into the face of oncoming traffic....it's just that little bit more dangerous for us. This should be an easy manouvre for an experienced emergency driver because they won't have commited themselves to following you through a red light. They will see that you aren't going to budge so take plan B instead.
28 July 2006, 11:08 AM
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Does my head in when i pull over for an emergaency viehcle in my bus and when its passed i signal to pull out and the cars behind me dont let me out.
Ignorant *******
Ignorant *******
28 July 2006, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by watto52
Does my head in when i pull over for an emergaency viehcle in my bus and when its passed i signal to pull out and the cars behind me dont let me out.
Ignorant *******
Ignorant *******
I like to indicate where appropriate, pull out of the way and come to a complete stop with brake lights on. I hope that indicates to the emergency vehicle that I have seen them and I am staying still until they have passed. Seen too many poeple weave in front of them as they panic and try to get out of the way.
Last edited by Gary C; 28 July 2006 at 02:10 PM.
28 July 2006, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuts bird
If you are stopped at a red light and an ambulance turns up behind you, you don't have to go through the red light. If it's safe and you want to then fine but it's your choice.
If there is no red light camera I move for emergency vehicles, however if as happened to me last year a police car comes up behind, siren wailing and there is a camera I just sit there until the lights change. The pigs in the car were jumping up and down in their seats and screaming at me to move, as if I'm going to take 3 points for their 'emergency'
. It was probably just one of their collegues getting a beating anyway as that's the only thing that seems to see them pulling their finger out.Moral of the story is, at lights move if you want, otherwise just let them find a way round you.
28 July 2006, 02:45 PM
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It was a Corsa yet you posted on a Subaru board..... MMmmmm
Smells of bull to me!
Smells of bull to me!
I drive a Scooby, I posted in the general discussion area about an incident to do with driving that happen in an area with a large number of Scooby drivers.
What are you on about?
28 July 2006, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuts bird
What?
I drive a Scooby, I posted in the general discussion area about an incident to do with driving that happen in an area with a large number of Scooby drivers.
What are you on about?
I drive a Scooby, I posted in the general discussion area about an incident to do with driving that happen in an area with a large number of Scooby drivers.
What are you on about?
28 July 2006, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by graeme.
It is true, I have it on good authority it is ok to go through a red light to let blue light vehicle through. Quite common knowledge I presumed.
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
This is incorrect, you WILL get fined and 3 points of you are camera'd moving through a red lights to let an emergency vehicle through. There was also a recent article in the paper regarding this.
28 July 2006, 03:49 PM
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Got this reply off a copper:
If a vehicle is stationary at the stop line and then moves through under a red light, its presence is detected by inductive loops buried in the road surface. There are two of these a set distance apart, which enables the Gatso to calculate the speed at which the vehicle passed over them.
However, in most cases the Gatso does not activate unless the vehicle is travelling at a speed in excess of 13mph. This would normally enable a vehicle to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle without activating the system. In any case, if the system activated it would be easy to see that the vehicle had done so to avoid the emergency vehicle because the emergency vehicle would also be captured on film.
Obviously this doesn't mean you won't get done and if you pull out into a busy junction or do a daft move then you probably deserve what you get. I move to one side if I can but if I can't I do whatever is safest, if that means sitting there for a min then so be it. Better than getting T-boned.
If a vehicle is stationary at the stop line and then moves through under a red light, its presence is detected by inductive loops buried in the road surface. There are two of these a set distance apart, which enables the Gatso to calculate the speed at which the vehicle passed over them.
However, in most cases the Gatso does not activate unless the vehicle is travelling at a speed in excess of 13mph. This would normally enable a vehicle to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle without activating the system. In any case, if the system activated it would be easy to see that the vehicle had done so to avoid the emergency vehicle because the emergency vehicle would also be captured on film.
Obviously this doesn't mean you won't get done and if you pull out into a busy junction or do a daft move then you probably deserve what you get. I move to one side if I can but if I can't I do whatever is safest, if that means sitting there for a min then so be it. Better than getting T-boned.
28 July 2006, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuts bird
Got this reply off a copper:
If a vehicle is stationary at the stop line and then moves through under a red light, its presence is detected by inductive loops buried in the road surface. There are two of these a set distance apart, which enables the Gatso to calculate the speed at which the vehicle passed over them.
However, in most cases the Gatso does not activate unless the vehicle is travelling at a speed in excess of 13mph. This would normally enable a vehicle to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle without activating the system. In any case, if the system activated it would be easy to see that the vehicle had done so to avoid the emergency vehicle because the emergency vehicle would also be captured on film.
Obviously this doesn't mean you won't get done and if you pull out into a busy junction or do a daft move then you probably deserve what you get. I move to one side if I can but if I can't I do whatever is safest, if that means sitting there for a min then so be it. Better than getting T-boned.
If a vehicle is stationary at the stop line and then moves through under a red light, its presence is detected by inductive loops buried in the road surface. There are two of these a set distance apart, which enables the Gatso to calculate the speed at which the vehicle passed over them.
However, in most cases the Gatso does not activate unless the vehicle is travelling at a speed in excess of 13mph. This would normally enable a vehicle to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle without activating the system. In any case, if the system activated it would be easy to see that the vehicle had done so to avoid the emergency vehicle because the emergency vehicle would also be captured on film.
Obviously this doesn't mean you won't get done and if you pull out into a busy junction or do a daft move then you probably deserve what you get. I move to one side if I can but if I can't I do whatever is safest, if that means sitting there for a min then so be it. Better than getting T-boned.
28 July 2006, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by graeme.
It is true, I have it on good authority it is ok to go through a red light to let blue light vehicle through. Quite common knowledge I presumed.
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
It makes me cringe when I approach a set of red lights in my Fire truck and people bounce their very expensive alloys up the kerb !! Just move forward through the light and I'll be on my way.
Any other Blue lighter's on here ??
I did my EFAD course about three months ago. It is true that motorists are not obliged to go through red lights when an emergency vehicle is behind them on a blue light run.
This was proved all to well by our own Cheif would you beleive. He refused to drive through a red light to let a fire engine through, even though traffic around him had stopped to give way. As the lights turned green he moved over and let the appliance pass. As the appliance drove past he then tapped his rank markings?? !! Unbelievable behaviour.
I think there definately should be an exemption in the highway code/laz for motortorists giving way to emergency vehicles. If they were coming to help you, you wouldn't want us to be held up, would you.
Ben
PS - When doing your EFAD course (emergency fire appliance driving) you are taught to try and read situations quickly and effectively. Also you're taught to hang back adn let the situation in front of you unfold, rather than storming up to stationary traffic and becoming part of the problem. As Phil said, the majority of the time we can go around motorists. Only do what you feel comfortable doing.
Last edited by Useless; 28 July 2006 at 05:13 PM.
28 July 2006, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Useless
As the lights turned green he moved over and let the appliance pass. As the appliance drove past he then tapped his rank markings?? Ben
Appliance ?
what was it a washing machine ?
28 July 2006, 09:23 PM
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ANyone fancy a punt??
next time your at a redlight cam, and plod turns up behind you with blues and two,s going, dont move...
odds on you,ll get done for obstruction!!!
they gave a woman driver a well screwy look when she didnt get out of the way fast enough last weekend!!! actually slowed, and travelled parallel to her to give her the screwy look..
cant see what it achieved mind!!
mart
next time your at a redlight cam, and plod turns up behind you with blues and two,s going, dont move...
odds on you,ll get done for obstruction!!!
they gave a woman driver a well screwy look when she didnt get out of the way fast enough last weekend!!! actually slowed, and travelled parallel to her to give her the screwy look..
cant see what it achieved mind!!
mart
28 July 2006, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mart360
ANyone fancy a punt??
next time your at a redlight cam, and plod turns up behind you with blues and two,s going, dont move...
odds on you,ll get done for obstruction!!!
they gave a woman driver a well screwy look when she didnt get out of the way fast enough last weekend!!! actually slowed, and travelled parallel to her to give her the screwy look..
cant see what it achieved mind!!
mart
next time your at a redlight cam, and plod turns up behind you with blues and two,s going, dont move...
odds on you,ll get done for obstruction!!!
they gave a woman driver a well screwy look when she didnt get out of the way fast enough last weekend!!! actually slowed, and travelled parallel to her to give her the screwy look..
cant see what it achieved mind!!
mart
made them feel good. Some coppers seem to be up their own ****
29 July 2006, 08:02 AM
#30
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On my actual driving test I had this situation, sitting at a red light with an ambulance with sirens on coming up behind. What a dilemma on your test, go through a red light, or obstruct an ambulance! In the end I just sat there for a few seconds kind of frozen and then the instructor told me to go through the red light.
I still passed though!
I still passed though!