School run
11 December 2000 | 05:41 PM
#1
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From: Highlands
Driving along a 2 lane country road, medium rain, wet muddy road, headlights on.. A mum in a Sierra Estate with kiddie in the back approaches give way sign at a narrow lane on my left. She looks left without stopping & turns right straight across my path 10m in front of me, she looks right, sees me & then applies her brakes - blocking the road, I have already started braking when I spotted her. I make the ABS & AWD do it's job & use the lane that's now behind her to give me extra space to stop. She says sorry, waves & goes on her way. Maybe next time she will look BOTH ways at a junction.
Having done the school run now for 6 weeks, there are some interesting patterns.
Mum's who are late (eg 08:55am) will drive fast & recklessly, especially when near the school.
Mum's in MPV's & big 4X4's will drive faster than other cars, especially around schools.
Most mum's cars have one brake light not working.
Late mum's & MPV's can park on the zigzag lines outside the school.
I have not seen any other traffic use excessive speed outside the school except late mums & MPV mums.
If your spouse does the school run, please send her through the IAM test.
Having done the school run now for 6 weeks, there are some interesting patterns.
Mum's who are late (eg 08:55am) will drive fast & recklessly, especially when near the school.
Mum's in MPV's & big 4X4's will drive faster than other cars, especially around schools.
Most mum's cars have one brake light not working.
Late mum's & MPV's can park on the zigzag lines outside the school.
I have not seen any other traffic use excessive speed outside the school except late mums & MPV mums.
If your spouse does the school run, please send her through the IAM test.
11 December 2000 | 05:45 PM
#2
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From: Surrey, UK
I live near a school, and one way or the other have to contend with school traffic... in the guildford area the school run mum's are the most ignorant bunch of sh** drivers I have come accross, my scoob has near lost its front end (mpv out of junc similar to above) and back end - 4x4 telling kids off in the back not looking at traffic in front...
Oh, as for the lot that use the school up by Bell&Colvill ...
ggrrr...
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
Oh, as for the lot that use the school up by Bell&Colvill ...
ggrrr...
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
11 December 2000 | 05:49 PM
#4
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From: Manchester
Completely sympathise with you on this one! I live just down the road from a primary school and have to battle my way through the mobile 'school run' road block most days.
Worst time of year is winter, as most cars come from very nearby and the drivers don't seem to have time to demist, defrost, or even turn-on their lights!
It is <I>always</I> me who has to give way when there are cars parked on the other side of the road, and I have lost count of the number of times I have nearly lost the front end of my car as drivers take a 'short cut' across the t-junction!
Winds me up as these people are the first to complain about road safety around schools!
Grr!
Andrew.
Worst time of year is winter, as most cars come from very nearby and the drivers don't seem to have time to demist, defrost, or even turn-on their lights!
It is <I>always</I> me who has to give way when there are cars parked on the other side of the road, and I have lost count of the number of times I have nearly lost the front end of my car as drivers take a 'short cut' across the t-junction!
Winds me up as these people are the first to complain about road safety around schools!
Grr!
Andrew.
11 December 2000 | 05:57 PM
#5
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From: Highlands
Lee
I agree. I live 1.7 miles from my local rural school along country lanes often with no verges & with high hedges. Currently arguing with the local authority for school transport on the basis of road danger. (My little girl is 5.)
I have noticed driving to school that about 200m from school there is a family who take their little girl to school by car. From their house to the school, there is a pathway.
Crazy!
I agree. I live 1.7 miles from my local rural school along country lanes often with no verges & with high hedges. Currently arguing with the local authority for school transport on the basis of road danger. (My little girl is 5.)
I have noticed driving to school that about 200m from school there is a family who take their little girl to school by car. From their house to the school, there is a pathway.
Crazy!
11 December 2000 | 06:06 PM
#6
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From: The Great White North
Jam and Ali live about 10 - 15 mins walk away from their school. We only drive them up there as we then proceede on to work, but we have to drive through the village which is a total nightmare.
This morning I had some stupid cow in a Vogager decide to pull over *without* indicating, she wondered why the hell I used the horn at her as well!
The school run shows up the worst driving you can imagine. I'm guilty as hell as I'm a bad driver, but at least I'll admit it.
Oh, we do walk up to school sometimes, mainly when we are giving maggie a little walk.
This morning I had some stupid cow in a Vogager decide to pull over *without* indicating, she wondered why the hell I used the horn at her as well!
The school run shows up the worst driving you can imagine. I'm guilty as hell as I'm a bad driver, but at least I'll admit it.
Oh, we do walk up to school sometimes, mainly when we are giving maggie a little walk.
11 December 2000 | 06:11 PM
#7
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From: Surrey, UK
I can understand to a degree why younger kids arent allowed to walk to school, especially on their own, due to a lot of nasty people around... but I'm surprised schools havent adopted a car pooling type arrangement, I know some parents do this already but why not make it part of the deal, as this would reduce traffic and keep the kids away from harm (bar the driver! 
).. just a thought...
(cos the number of MPVs, Range Rovers and the like with a driver and one kid (maybe two) is mad...!!)
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
).. just a thought...(cos the number of MPVs, Range Rovers and the like with a driver and one kid (maybe two) is mad...!!)
[This message has been edited by DrEvil (edited 11 December 2000).]
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11 December 2000 | 06:29 PM
#8
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From: Highlands
Car pooling is a good idea. However, because of the mum's lack of driving skills, they simply do not recognise the danger they are subjecting the kids to, every day.
My school is in a small village, the speed limit is the National speed limit (60mph - no street lights). Therefore, the mum's will frown at me doing 85mph on the motorway, but be perfectly happy to drive past the school at chuck-out time at around 50mph. They are often impatiently sitting on my tail as I trundle along outside the school at 15-20mph.
More stupid speed limits again, along with the stupid Speed-kills punchline. This means that a mum KNOWS that if she is under the speed limit, she is driving "safely". It's what the government has told her!
My school is in a small village, the speed limit is the National speed limit (60mph - no street lights). Therefore, the mum's will frown at me doing 85mph on the motorway, but be perfectly happy to drive past the school at chuck-out time at around 50mph. They are often impatiently sitting on my tail as I trundle along outside the school at 15-20mph.
More stupid speed limits again, along with the stupid Speed-kills punchline. This means that a mum KNOWS that if she is under the speed limit, she is driving "safely". It's what the government has told her!
11 December 2000 | 06:34 PM
#9
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From: Surrey, UK
oooh my god! Nick you're kidding, 60 zone outside a school...
Although to be fair, Bell&Colvill (my local dealership) is based on the A246, which is a 60 zone, and there is a school right by them which has what can only be described as a lay-by for dropping the kids off, trouble is, the school run mums simply block the road so nobody can get past the school going to or from leatherhead/guildford.. infact you can't even get into the B&C service center unless you Q for about 30-45mins... grrr..
i think you are right to slow to 20mph whilst passing a school though.
rgds, Alex
Although to be fair, Bell&Colvill (my local dealership) is based on the A246, which is a 60 zone, and there is a school right by them which has what can only be described as a lay-by for dropping the kids off, trouble is, the school run mums simply block the road so nobody can get past the school going to or from leatherhead/guildford.. infact you can't even get into the B&C service center unless you Q for about 30-45mins... grrr..
i think you are right to slow to 20mph whilst passing a school though.
rgds, Alex
11 December 2000 | 06:41 PM
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All of the above problems happen in my part of the world too, particularly the MPV's and 4*4's using unlit country lanes in winter before clearing screens etc. This has caused me to be put upon to take evasive action on more than one occassion, the MPV's and large 4*4's seem to change lanes easily if the driver is not paying full attention. Interestingly the one time I got out of the car to boll*ck the soppy tart driving she almost burst into tears when I blasted her for endangering her children by not driving properly.
I would encourage the local councils to put more Gatso's around schools to prevent idiots from speeding near them. But, I would also encourage the local council to ask the police to patrol the area at the same time and point out the basic principles of the highway code and driving courtesy that the school run bridgade have not grasped.
Yex - glad I got that off my chest
[This message has been edited by Yex (edited 11 December 2000).]
I would encourage the local councils to put more Gatso's around schools to prevent idiots from speeding near them. But, I would also encourage the local council to ask the police to patrol the area at the same time and point out the basic principles of the highway code and driving courtesy that the school run bridgade have not grasped.
Yex - glad I got that off my chest
[This message has been edited by Yex (edited 11 December 2000).]
11 December 2000 | 06:43 PM
#11
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From: Highlands
DrE
As I mentioned the school is in a village. So even though the speed limit is the NSL, I drive at an appropriate speed - which I choose to be 30mph through the village, which I then drop to 15-20mph when passing the school.
Understanding appropriate speed limits, you need to understand how to drive. Something which is way beyond many mums, I'm afraid.
As I mentioned the school is in a village. So even though the speed limit is the NSL, I drive at an appropriate speed - which I choose to be 30mph through the village, which I then drop to 15-20mph when passing the school.
Understanding appropriate speed limits, you need to understand how to drive. Something which is way beyond many mums, I'm afraid.
11 December 2000 | 07:43 PM
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Not sure about Gatsos as most people slow down before and speed up straight after.
Far more effective seem to be the speed sensitive signs that have a lit up 30mph sign.
They've dropped the limit through a village (with school) on the B4000 near me to 30mph and its amazing how many people slow down when they see the flashing sign and are still doing 30mph the other side of the village.
Of course, these signs are cheaper AND more effective than a Gatso, but don't generate any revenue - hence they won't be adopted as they don't fit in with the government's "speed brings in tons of ca$h" message! If only they were actually serious about the road safety message itself...
Far more effective seem to be the speed sensitive signs that have a lit up 30mph sign.
They've dropped the limit through a village (with school) on the B4000 near me to 30mph and its amazing how many people slow down when they see the flashing sign and are still doing 30mph the other side of the village.
Of course, these signs are cheaper AND more effective than a Gatso, but don't generate any revenue - hence they won't be adopted as they don't fit in with the government's "speed brings in tons of ca$h" message! If only they were actually serious about the road safety message itself...
11 December 2000 | 08:14 PM
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From: Notts, UK
I agree with variable limits and 20mph around Schools at danger times is a good idea.
I haven't seen the new speed limit signs but they sound a good idea also.
First time through Nottingham since they installed the new SPECS digital average speed cameras, last week. I have never concentrated as hard on my speed before, unfortunately I suspect this was at the expense of not paying enough attention to the road. Bad idea with kids about. Don't put these outside schools.
Lee
I haven't seen the new speed limit signs but they sound a good idea also.
First time through Nottingham since they installed the new SPECS digital average speed cameras, last week. I have never concentrated as hard on my speed before, unfortunately I suspect this was at the expense of not paying enough attention to the road. Bad idea with kids about. Don't put these outside schools.
Lee
12 December 2000 | 01:13 AM
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Nick,
Sorry if my point came across as a criticism, - that wasn't my intention at all.
30 is better than 50, 20 is better than 30, 20 might or might not be safe. Better that people watch the road for hazards than sit at a [potentially!] unsafe speed.
However since we are constantly reminded that 'Speed Kills' it is little wonder than people think that as long as they don't exceed the speed limit then they pose no danger. That is certainly the impression I get rom the various Governmen bodies.
Ho hum!
C
Sorry if my point came across as a criticism, - that wasn't my intention at all.
30 is better than 50, 20 is better than 30, 20 might or might not be safe. Better that people watch the road for hazards than sit at a [potentially!] unsafe speed.
However since we are constantly reminded that 'Speed Kills' it is little wonder than people think that as long as they don't exceed the speed limit then they pose no danger. That is certainly the impression I get rom the various Governmen bodies.
Ho hum!
C
12 December 2000 | 01:28 AM
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The problem is that you end up with a 20mph zone, half a mile long, enforced 24 hours a day.
Low speeds coupled with a lack of perceived risk result in very inattentive drivers. It also breeds contempt for all speed limits over time.
Rather than reducing the severity of accidents, A much better solution would be to eliminate the odds of them occurring. For example, provide proper parking arrangements outside schools so that you don't have the problem of dozens of small children running across the road. Better still, do what they do in the US and set up a school bus run.
Low speeds coupled with a lack of perceived risk result in very inattentive drivers. It also breeds contempt for all speed limits over time.
Rather than reducing the severity of accidents, A much better solution would be to eliminate the odds of them occurring. For example, provide proper parking arrangements outside schools so that you don't have the problem of dozens of small children running across the road. Better still, do what they do in the US and set up a school bus run.
12 December 2000 | 01:32 AM
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I believe in the US, well Florida at least it is illegal to overtake a School Bus that is on an school run - specified times etc.
Is that different to Mums in Jeeps who won't let you overtake and act like they are driving a bus!!!
Is that different to Mums in Jeeps who won't let you overtake and act like they are driving a bus!!!
12 December 2000 | 01:33 AM
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DavidRB,
I agree with everything you say.
But the zones outside should be resricted only between those times that children are in the vicinity, e.g. 08:30 - 09:00, 12:00 - 13:00, 15:00 - 15:30 Monday to Friday. At all other times, the 'normal' speed limit applies.
C
I agree with everything you say.
But the zones outside should be resricted only between those times that children are in the vicinity, e.g. 08:30 - 09:00, 12:00 - 13:00, 15:00 - 15:30 Monday to Friday. At all other times, the 'normal' speed limit applies.
C
12 December 2000 | 01:40 AM
#19
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From: Highlands
>C
I understand what you mean & I agree completely. I think that driver education is the best way to go. Maybe make everyone take the IAM test within, say 3 years of the standard test?
>DavidRB
Inappropriate speed limits without a perceived risk is what makes drivers ignore them. I know that in my IAM test, I was expected to comment as I passed a school, if the school was at a danger time - ie, lunchtime, chuck-out time etc. I think that a school bus run would be excellent. How this is paid for - I don't know. Small rural schools couldn't possibly afford a mini bus.
I understand what you mean & I agree completely. I think that driver education is the best way to go. Maybe make everyone take the IAM test within, say 3 years of the standard test?
>DavidRB
Inappropriate speed limits without a perceived risk is what makes drivers ignore them. I know that in my IAM test, I was expected to comment as I passed a school, if the school was at a danger time - ie, lunchtime, chuck-out time etc. I think that a school bus run would be excellent. How this is paid for - I don't know. Small rural schools couldn't possibly afford a mini bus.
12 December 2000 | 09:18 AM
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You have my sympathies Nick.
Both my kids attended a village school about 8-10 miles from me. I use the P1 for the School run, as I used the MY98 before it.
In villages and urban areas I am very fastidious about the speed limits, but some of the other parents (mainly mums) haven't got a clue.
They called in the filth to try to pursuade them to impose traffic calming measures near the school, yet most of the people I've seen speeding are those complaining.
The local Bobby informs me that this is very common. They were recently asked to do some speed checks in a village, by a couple of outraged residents. The first people caught and fined? You guessed it
Personally, I've got nothing against women drivers, it's just people do seem to leave their brains at home when they're doing the school run.........and the shopping.
Both my kids attended a village school about 8-10 miles from me. I use the P1 for the School run, as I used the MY98 before it.
In villages and urban areas I am very fastidious about the speed limits, but some of the other parents (mainly mums) haven't got a clue.
They called in the filth to try to pursuade them to impose traffic calming measures near the school, yet most of the people I've seen speeding are those complaining.
The local Bobby informs me that this is very common. They were recently asked to do some speed checks in a village, by a couple of outraged residents. The first people caught and fined? You guessed it
Personally, I've got nothing against women drivers, it's just people do seem to leave their brains at home when they're doing the school run.........and the shopping.
12 December 2000 | 10:09 AM
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Interesting article in the Evening standard last night. A headmaster in Milton Keynes is publishing the number plates of "school run" cars on his main notice board if they break traffic regs outside his school - double parking, parking on crossings etc. He is trying to "name and shame" the people responsible for any potential serious accident which could happen, and get feed back to them via their kids. Apparently he will pass on the info to local police if they carry on ignoring his pleas, and encourage the police to attend the school and nick anyone breaking traffic regs, and possibly endangering pupils at his school....top man
Si,
As for being a good idea to put Gatso's outside schools I think everyone on the BBS has discussed this and given it their backing However, as the local councils know the cameras will not raise enough revenue to pay for themselves in this location they will not carry out the installation when will they learn that kids do silly things and need as much protection as they can get, particularly from traffic
Yex
Si,
As for being a good idea to put Gatso's outside schools I think everyone on the BBS has discussed this and given it their backing
However, as the local councils know the cameras will not raise enough revenue to pay for themselves in this location they will not carry out the installation when will they learn that kids do silly things and need as much protection as they can get, particularly from trafficYex
12 December 2000 | 11:29 AM
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I do agree that 'something must be done' to reduce the speed of cars outside schols during critical times BUT if a 20mph limit is used some people will just see that as the 'target' limit and drive to that.
If 30mph isn't safe, I don't see how simply reducing that by 10mph suddenly makes that limit safe.
Personally, I'd like to see traffic crawl past schools for the 100 or so yards the school 'danger zone' lasts for.
C
If 30mph isn't safe, I don't see how simply reducing that by 10mph suddenly makes that limit safe.
Personally, I'd like to see traffic crawl past schools for the 100 or so yards the school 'danger zone' lasts for.
C
12 December 2000 | 12:03 PM
#28
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From: Highlands
Ca
I agree, I just meant that 20mph was a more appropriate speed than 50mph for checking for kids behind cars, car doors opening, car pulling out, engines starting, etc etc.
Like 20mph, crawling is no good if the drivers aren't looking for the danger points.
I agree, I just meant that 20mph was a more appropriate speed than 50mph for checking for kids behind cars, car doors opening, car pulling out, engines starting, etc etc.
Like 20mph, crawling is no good if the drivers aren't looking for the danger points.
12 December 2000 | 03:32 PM
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Nick,
I'd go further than that.
I'd opt for unmarked police vehices whose sole job is to 'educate' (i.e. verbal caution, FPN or full blown prosecution) people who:
1. hog middle lanes
2. drive inconsiderately
3. drive with flog lights on when they are not appropriate
etc..
AIUI the FPN scheme does not extend to such offences t the moment. Therefore, a change in the law would be required.
Sure everyone speeds now and again but I believe there are a core of loony drivers who think the rules do not apply to them. And although they are getting caught speeding they are rarely getting caught for those offences that really cause problems for other road users.
C
I'd go further than that.
I'd opt for unmarked police vehices whose sole job is to 'educate' (i.e. verbal caution, FPN or full blown prosecution) people who:
1. hog middle lanes
2. drive inconsiderately
3. drive with flog lights on when they are not appropriate
etc..
AIUI the FPN scheme does not extend to such offences t the moment. Therefore, a change in the law would be required.
Sure everyone speeds now and again but I believe there are a core of loony drivers who think the rules do not apply to them. And although they are getting caught speeding they are rarely getting caught for those offences that really cause problems for other road users.
C