Trackdays - Tyre Wear
21 January 2001, 09:13 PM
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On Saturday I gave instruction to Bob Garner 'Renrag' at Elvington and a jolly good day was had by all. What never ceases to amaze me is the tyre pressures used in road car tyres during these sessions. Because of the very high levels of grip and the excessive steering used by most novice drivers, the outer edges of the tyre are ground away very quickly. Your track day costs about a £100 and you rag a set of rubber at £600. Offputting is it not ?
The tip is to run 50 psi all round in your Impreza and you will find that the tyres last about five times longer. Many doubt what I say but try it. You will lose so little in performance that unless you are testing for competition purposes you will hardly notice any difference, if any at all.
Both myself and Mike Woods of Prodrive always use these pressure in roadgoing Impreza's whenever we provide professional drives during test sessions. It really does work well.
Happy Trackdays !!!
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 21 January 2001).]
The tip is to run 50 psi all round in your Impreza and you will find that the tyres last about five times longer. Many doubt what I say but try it. You will lose so little in performance that unless you are testing for competition purposes you will hardly notice any difference, if any at all.
Both myself and Mike Woods of Prodrive always use these pressure in roadgoing Impreza's whenever we provide professional drives during test sessions. It really does work well.
Happy Trackdays !!!
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 21 January 2001).]
21 January 2001, 09:59 PM
#2
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i normally put 2-3 extra psi in!
for dono last sat i went up to 35psi all the way round!
the edge on the front left tyre did not waer as bad/quite good considering, but cus the tyre had more pressure in than normal i have found that the tyre has worn a lot more in the centre of the tread pattern!!!!
the tyre tread was getting low/still well legal....now i'm gettin v. v. close to the limit.
think the MOT will pic up on it next month!!!!
i will try 50psi next time!!!!
will they explode tho at speed???????????
Phil
for dono last sat i went up to 35psi all the way round!
the edge on the front left tyre did not waer as bad/quite good considering, but cus the tyre had more pressure in than normal i have found that the tyre has worn a lot more in the centre of the tread pattern!!!!
the tyre tread was getting low/still well legal....now i'm gettin v. v. close to the limit.
think the MOT will pic up on it next month!!!!
i will try 50psi next time!!!!
will they explode tho at speed???????????
Phil
21 January 2001, 10:51 PM
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As you are talking tyre pressures I have 18in P1 alloys on now and they are reading 37 fronts 38 back left and 40 back right.
Does anyone know what the pressures should be for road use.
Rich
Does anyone know what the pressures should be for road use.
Rich
21 January 2001, 11:01 PM
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Hiya Mike,
Toyo's going on on Monday morning at last. I don't know if I told you but when I had my car serviced they told me I had nails in 3 of them. Going a bit quick day before too
(using mirrors this time )
Scott.
PS: Pop in for a sandwich and a coffee. Maybe have a chat with Emma too
Toyo's going on on Monday morning at last. I don't know if I told you but when I had my car serviced they told me I had nails in 3 of them. Going a bit quick day before too
(using mirrors this time )Scott.
PS: Pop in for a sandwich and a coffee. Maybe have a chat with Emma too
22 January 2001, 12:18 AM
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Sorry to go on, I should know this.
Is that 50psi after you have warmed all the tyres up ? ie after a few laps ?
Surely it's not from cold, my tyres go up 3-5 psi (different for each) on a track day.
Gary
Is that 50psi after you have warmed all the tyres up ? ie after a few laps ?
Surely it's not from cold, my tyres go up 3-5 psi (different for each) on a track day.
Gary
22 January 2001, 12:34 AM
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Mike@PD,
My Bridgestone S-02PPs have a warning on the sidewall NOT to exceed 44psi. Now, if I pump them up to 50psi cold and then take them out on track, I'd reckon I'd get up to 55psi or more once the tyres are hot. 20% above the manufacturer's maximum recommendation seems to me like pushing the tolerances a bit too far. Would you not agree?
All the best,
Brian
My Bridgestone S-02PPs have a warning on the sidewall NOT to exceed 44psi. Now, if I pump them up to 50psi cold and then take them out on track, I'd reckon I'd get up to 55psi or more once the tyres are hot. 20% above the manufacturer's maximum recommendation seems to me like pushing the tolerances a bit too far. Would you not agree?
All the best,
Brian
22 January 2001, 12:50 AM
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50 psi sounds a bit high, but the concept is OK.
Know a lot of people who do club level motorsport, largely in modified saloon/sports cars (ie on road tyres) ALL of whom run with over 40 psi in the dry and a little less in the wet.
D
Know a lot of people who do club level motorsport, largely in modified saloon/sports cars (ie on road tyres) ALL of whom run with over 40 psi in the dry and a little less in the wet.
D
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22 January 2001, 05:36 AM
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The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say. Contact Renrag on the board and ask him, he has tried it. Irrespective of what Mike W has told you, these are the pressures we use including him. As for speed, higher tyre pressures cause less heat to be generated (within certain perameters) and although 50psi is high, it will cause no trouble for track days. Maybe Geoff Painter and Bob (Renrag) might add their observations for your info. It really is best...
DO NOT USE THESE PRESSURE SETTINGS ON THE PUBLIC HIGHWAY. THOSE DISCUSSED BY OTHERS ON THIS POSTING APPEAR TO BE ADVICE FOR USE ON THE ROAD AND NOT THE TRACK AS THIS POSTING REFERS TO.
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 22 January 2001).]
DO NOT USE THESE PRESSURE SETTINGS ON THE PUBLIC HIGHWAY. THOSE DISCUSSED BY OTHERS ON THIS POSTING APPEAR TO BE ADVICE FOR USE ON THE ROAD AND NOT THE TRACK AS THIS POSTING REFERS TO.
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 22 January 2001).]
22 January 2001, 09:24 AM
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Just to put a different perspective on here.
On a trck day you put much more heat into the tire. As the heat builds up so does the pressure, thefore you should not over inflate the tire. I would run that at normal pressure.
I know that most manufacturers say run a bit higher for fast-road use, but fast raod is nothing like 30mins round a track.
On a trck day you put much more heat into the tire. As the heat builds up so does the pressure, thefore you should not over inflate the tire. I would run that at normal pressure.
I know that most manufacturers say run a bit higher for fast-road use, but fast raod is nothing like 30mins round a track.
22 January 2001, 12:08 PM
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Rich,
Not long ago I posed Mike Wood the same question, and was advised to start from around 33 front and 32 rear.
This isn't a bad starting point, but you need to try out a few adjustments to suit your driving. A couple of people I know have reversed those pressures, and another P1 owner I've come across runs something like 35 all round.
Josh
Not long ago I posed Mike Wood the same question, and was advised to start from around 33 front and 32 rear.
This isn't a bad starting point, but you need to try out a few adjustments to suit your driving. A couple of people I know have reversed those pressures, and another P1 owner I've come across runs something like 35 all round.
Josh
22 January 2001, 03:48 PM
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The purpose of the posting was to save you all a few quid and the intentions were good too.
The 50psi setting is adjusted when the tyres are hot. We can debate this for ever and I hear what you have to say. There is clearly a choice and you will have to decide what you wish to achieve. If you wish to be technical, fancy yourself and want to set records, go for it in a scientific way and pay the high costs involved. However if you are seeking value for money excitement without too much compromise, which is the whole purpose of track days, the advice is there and the choice is yours. One reply states that high pressures result in excessive wear in the tread centre. Yes that is true and over 5k miles in a straight line and centre wear would clearly be very evident. However, if you are only running on the centre section of the tyre on track days, I would give up because the general idea is to drive hard through corners thus transfering the dynamic forces away from the vehicles usual steady state. Just take a look and its always the edges that are ragged!
Ask yourself how much you can afford for your trackdays? Exclude your 20k pride and joy and add £80 for the day - £45 track insurance - £40 for fuel - £20 fuel to travel to the venue - £20 for incidentals and either - £50 in tyres or if your wealthy £600. A total of either £255 my way or £805 for the day at 30psi. Its almost as cheap to go buy a club rally car and do some real motorsport!
If you manage to blow the tyres up because of excessive heat input over 15 laps at 50psi, let me know. I have some good contacts who might wish to recruit you as a driver because you will be an as yet undiscovered talent!!
Please lets not kick the backside out of this subject, you have a choice and both myself and other top drivers use 50psi in these circumstances regularly. Its cheaper, its as much fun and the speed/handling differential is too small to be relevent at this level.
Best regards to you all.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 22 January 2001).]
The 50psi setting is adjusted when the tyres are hot. We can debate this for ever and I hear what you have to say. There is clearly a choice and you will have to decide what you wish to achieve. If you wish to be technical, fancy yourself and want to set records, go for it in a scientific way and pay the high costs involved. However if you are seeking value for money excitement without too much compromise, which is the whole purpose of track days, the advice is there and the choice is yours. One reply states that high pressures result in excessive wear in the tread centre. Yes that is true and over 5k miles in a straight line and centre wear would clearly be very evident. However, if you are only running on the centre section of the tyre on track days, I would give up because the general idea is to drive hard through corners thus transfering the dynamic forces away from the vehicles usual steady state. Just take a look and its always the edges that are ragged!
Ask yourself how much you can afford for your trackdays? Exclude your 20k pride and joy and add £80 for the day - £45 track insurance - £40 for fuel - £20 fuel to travel to the venue - £20 for incidentals and either - £50 in tyres or if your wealthy £600. A total of either £255 my way or £805 for the day at 30psi. Its almost as cheap to go buy a club rally car and do some real motorsport!
If you manage to blow the tyres up because of excessive heat input over 15 laps at 50psi, let me know. I have some good contacts who might wish to recruit you as a driver because you will be an as yet undiscovered talent!!
Please lets not kick the backside out of this subject, you have a choice and both myself and other top drivers use 50psi in these circumstances regularly. Its cheaper, its as much fun and the speed/handling differential is too small to be relevent at this level.
Best regards to you all.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 22 January 2001).]
22 January 2001, 03:59 PM
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If my track-day petrol bill was only £40 I'd be a happy man!!
I'll happily try slightly higher settings in an attempt to get more than 1 day use out of the tyres though.
(I'll let you know if I manage to get them to explode!!)
I'll happily try slightly higher settings in an attempt to get more than 1 day use out of the tyres though.
(I'll let you know if I manage to get them to explode!!
)
22 January 2001, 04:01 PM
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Well I'm game for giving it a go !
My tyres were bald on the edge and had about 8mm in the middle. Which just goes to show how bad I am at this thing
I have a track day on Saturday so here goes
Mike
Thanks for the advice, I can assure you it is much appreciated, the tyre cost has been the thing that has really made track days V expensive for me, I do hope this helps !
Gary
My tyres were bald on the edge and had about 8mm in the middle. Which just goes to show how bad I am at this thing
I have a track day on Saturday so here goes
Mike
Thanks for the advice, I can assure you it is much appreciated, the tyre cost has been the thing that has really made track days V expensive for me, I do hope this helps !
Gary
22 January 2001, 05:42 PM
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I gonna try this on my M5 definately.
Just hope nothing blows.
do you put the pressure in on the day before - or on the day on the way there?
I'm on 18/40 245's, at the moment, I'm running on Bridgestone Potenza S02 Pole Positions @ £200 each - and on a good track day (120 - 200 miles?) I can wipe a third to a half of the tyres off. Thats why I'm considering buying a Caterham - because you can stick any £40 rubbish on... which would mean I could afford a lot more track days!
Paul.
Just hope nothing blows.
do you put the pressure in on the day before - or on the day on the way there?
I'm on 18/40 245's, at the moment, I'm running on Bridgestone Potenza S02 Pole Positions @ £200 each - and on a good track day (120 - 200 miles?) I can wipe a third to a half of the tyres off. Thats why I'm considering buying a Caterham - because you can stick any £40 rubbish on... which would mean I could afford a lot more track days!
Paul.
22 January 2001, 05:56 PM
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Hi Mike I'm here at last.
It's OK guys, when he told me 50psi I tried to squirm out of it as well. But I did as I was told, ran all day on high grip airfield tarmac, hardly a scratch on the P0's and when I finished the last session I checked the pressures - hadn't moved a jot. And if you don't think we were driving hard here is an example:we managed 128mph on the straight with hard braking into sharp 90 left, staying on the brakes with a quick flick left put the back end out, straight in heavy on the loud pedal for 30 yards, lift, flick right, back end out again, then hard on the gas. That's perhaps one eighth of the circuit at Elvington with plenty more like it.
I learned a lot and many thanks Mike for the days instruction. More than likely would have cost me the instruction fee in tyre wear if I hadn't knocked them up to 50 and hardly noticed anything in loss of grip, but grip wasn't what I went for, it was some serious flicking, lifting, some good old sideways action and lots of limit handling.
Brilliant!
It's OK guys, when he told me 50psi I tried to squirm out of it as well. But I did as I was told, ran all day on high grip airfield tarmac, hardly a scratch on the P0's and when I finished the last session I checked the pressures - hadn't moved a jot. And if you don't think we were driving hard here is an example:we managed 128mph on the straight with hard braking into sharp 90 left, staying on the brakes with a quick flick left put the back end out, straight in heavy on the loud pedal for 30 yards, lift, flick right, back end out again, then hard on the gas. That's perhaps one eighth of the circuit at Elvington with plenty more like it.
I learned a lot and many thanks Mike for the days instruction. More than likely would have cost me the instruction fee in tyre wear if I hadn't knocked them up to 50 and hardly noticed anything in loss of grip, but grip wasn't what I went for, it was some serious flicking, lifting, some good old sideways action and lots of limit handling.
Brilliant!
22 January 2001, 07:58 PM
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Another top tip is to find out which local tyre house has the contract for supplying tyres to the local constabulary. Volvo T5 and S70/V70 run on the same size 16" tyres as Imprezas OE and they get plenty of good take offs from such vehicles. Recently I was offered 36 at a tenner each. Now thats what I call cheap track day rubber.....
22 January 2001, 08:41 PM
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Mike,
Now that's what I call a good sideline
Do you know of anyone who could store them, say someone with a nice sized factory unit in a central location for a small commission
Better still if they are a car valeter who could sell them to his trade and private customers
Scotty.
Now that's what I call a good sideline
Do you know of anyone who could store them, say someone with a nice sized factory unit in a central location for a small commission
Better still if they are a car valeter who could sell them to his trade and private customers
Scotty.
22 January 2001, 08:47 PM
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Mike.
Thanks for the advice, I guess people will either take it or leave it. I for one will give it a go on Saturday if I don't sort my slicks out.
Anyone who uses SO-2's or Proxes on track should certainly consider trying it, as they are wayyyyy to soft for the track IMHO.
Stef.
Thanks for the advice, I guess people will either take it or leave it. I for one will give it a go on Saturday if I don't sort my slicks out.
Anyone who uses SO-2's or Proxes on track should certainly consider trying it, as they are wayyyyy to soft for the track IMHO.
Stef.
22 January 2001, 09:32 PM
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Rebecca is right. Underinflated tyres generate more heat and in extreme cases this can effect the structure of the tyre causing it to fail. When racing, if we require more heat in the tyres, we let them down a little.
10 out of 10 for Rebecca !
10 out of 10 for Rebecca !
22 January 2001, 10:00 PM
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Magic of Motorsport in Preston supply a 17" steel rim for the scoobs for group n rallying,I`m in there tommorow to find out a price.What i intend to do is fit my old tyres (about 2mm of tread) and destroy them on my first track day!!
Coming summer i`ll be able to run some part worn slicks or rally `tarmac` tyres!!
I`ll keep you posted on the price!
Coming summer i`ll be able to run some part worn slicks or rally `tarmac` tyres!!
I`ll keep you posted on the price!
22 January 2001, 10:45 PM
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Hi,
Your tyres will also wear less quickly if they have minimum tread on them, due to less heat build-up as the tread blocks distort.
Not much use if it is going to rain though, and don't forget that they need to be legal on the way home.
Cheers,
Alex
Your tyres will also wear less quickly if they have minimum tread on them, due to less heat build-up as the tread blocks distort.
Not much use if it is going to rain though, and don't forget that they need to be legal on the way home.
Cheers,
Alex
23 January 2001, 09:04 AM
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I have to agree with Mike on this one.
50 psi does seem a bit high but certainly boosting the pressure helps stiffen the tyrewall and reduces distortion of the tyre footprint under duress.
The debate over temperature is also valid but the low pressures cause more heat build up in the tyre than do high pressures because the tye flexes much less. (try bending your eraser vigourously and note the heat biuld up).
We used shaved tyres when training in America - these were deliberately releived of 70% of their tread before use. This reduces the height of tread blocks significantly and the effect is to reduce heat biuld up in the tyre and at the same time improve heat dissipation from the tyre (shorter path for the heat to escape from the carcase).
These tyres last three times longer than fully treaded tyres which biuld up too much heat under the tread and either shed the whole lot in one go or break out large areas from the centre of the footprint.
We do not reccomend upping the pressures at the Wetter the Better because the loads are very low compared to a conventional track day and the performance of the car is affected more in the wet by excessive pressures. Better to learn about the car as a standard beastie for what we do.
I reitterate what I said elswhere ...
"I have always felt that tyre therapy is by far the biggest cost of motoring pleasure."
others might point out that you have to pay for your pleasures!
Best fishes
Don Palmer
50 psi does seem a bit high but certainly boosting the pressure helps stiffen the tyrewall and reduces distortion of the tyre footprint under duress.
The debate over temperature is also valid but the low pressures cause more heat build up in the tyre than do high pressures because the tye flexes much less. (try bending your eraser vigourously and note the heat biuld up).
We used shaved tyres when training in America - these were deliberately releived of 70% of their tread before use. This reduces the height of tread blocks significantly and the effect is to reduce heat biuld up in the tyre and at the same time improve heat dissipation from the tyre (shorter path for the heat to escape from the carcase).
These tyres last three times longer than fully treaded tyres which biuld up too much heat under the tread and either shed the whole lot in one go or break out large areas from the centre of the footprint.
We do not reccomend upping the pressures at the Wetter the Better because the loads are very low compared to a conventional track day and the performance of the car is affected more in the wet by excessive pressures. Better to learn about the car as a standard beastie for what we do.
I reitterate what I said elswhere ...
"I have always felt that tyre therapy is by far the biggest cost of motoring pleasure."
others might point out that you have to pay for your pleasures!
Best fishes
Don Palmer
23 January 2001, 04:26 PM
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Hi Don
Good to see that we are batting on the same wicket still. I got your e-mail but the body text was missing. Please make contact again as we must have some catching up to do by now !
Best Regards and keep up the good work. Im sure we will sort them out between us ?
Good to see that we are batting on the same wicket still. I got your e-mail but the body text was missing. Please make contact again as we must have some catching up to do by now !
Best Regards and keep up the good work. Im sure we will sort them out between us ?
23 January 2001, 07:43 PM
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Mossman
One things for sure, if I get her in my car you won't catch me !!!!
However if it comes to a shootout between my stereo and your 4,000,000 watt mega blasting, ear bursting, power draining, boot distortion kit, I will conceed at the first hurdle !
When are you going to buy the ultimate accessory and come on one of my courses ?
PS I love her so watch out !!!
One things for sure, if I get her in my car you won't catch me !!!!
However if it comes to a shootout between my stereo and your 4,000,000 watt mega blasting, ear bursting, power draining, boot distortion kit, I will conceed at the first hurdle !
When are you going to buy the ultimate accessory and come on one of my courses ?
PS I love her so watch out !!!