Spec C- A bit of tinkering @ Litchfileds/Powerstation
09 April 2009, 03:26 PM
#1
Spec C- A bit of tinkering @ Litchfileds/Powerstation
Yesterday went down to Litchfields, in their newly opened, scenicly positioned establishment in the rolling hills of beautiful Gloucestershire. Wont go into too much details as Im sure Ian would rather unveil his new premises & rather not have me ruin it. But I will just say it was the most shiny; spotless; workshop I have ever seen with a few Sti's; Type 20s & other top offerings from Nissan dotted around. The level of customer service & attention to detail is like no other garage/showroom & the prices are quite reasonable to boot. Put simply, you get an honest opinion & honest work, stress free from experts in this specialised sector.
Got there at 9am they started Asap & I popped into town in their Impreza Classic courtesty car for a spot of breakfast & had a look at some Koeinesggs & a Pagazonda at the Aston Martin garage!
Before lunch they had done the oil service; general inspection; some work on the alarm; fitted a Prodrive 3 port boost solenoid & Forge Uprated Actuator, all according to plan so far. ps Also fiteed last week by member Woodbutch, Hayward & Scott 3" full decat exhaust system with jap exit angled backbox. (Heat wrapped downpipe with bellmouth design).
After reading Shauns Spec C project car thread & basing my mods on his, I was hoping for plus 360 bhp, like his. (apart from the resonated centre section in my exhaust which he did not have. Also he was at the time on a Scoobysport exhaust but it is very similar to H&S) But here's where things dont always go according to plan
Got to Powerstation after lunch & got on the rollers at 2pm with Rich mapping. Got the car set up but couldnt find their existing map on ECU. So we had to start a new map from scratch with the idea of running it as close to 1.6 bar peak after my discussions with Shaun. After 1.5 hours on the dyno we could not get very good figures at all & as the session progressed we found the engine to be pinking & ECU retarding ignition at one point by 10 degrees. Rich even heard some knock so things wer'nt going too well. Rich put the problem down, most probably to contaminated fuel. Earlier in the morning I had filled up with Vpower in Pinner, Middx but it is a small Shell garage. After a quick discussion about my rising costs of the remap & the predicament I was in (I couldnt really drive home with the car like this) we came to an agreement on price with Rich being quite reasonable & he did not charge for the whole 3hours I was there!! (In fact he charged a whole lot less!)
So we drained the half tank of fuel remaining; I went down to another Shell garge; filled up again & back on the dyno at 4pm with me pacing up & down the dyno cell like an expectant father. This time, hey presto, no pinking, no ingnition retardation, in fact it advanced ignition by 7 degrees. So thats one problem solved. Now back to mapping. Finally at 4.45 pm, after testing everyting, including actuator pressure we managed a bhp figure of 340bhp at the flywheel. To be honest I was dissapointed, I was hoping for approx 360 bhp plus. Rich on the other hand wasnt & did not expect much more than 345 bhp as he said most make around that figure. Some have made more, but this is not an exact science, especially when not comparing like for like. After speaking to Ian today I feel even better, his opinion is that due to the dodgy fuel problem, I unnfortunately had the car running in the dyno cell for pretty much 3 hours, with a run to the petrol station in between & then getting a final run max bhp figure. This will generate a lot of heat in the process & is not ideal for me to get a max bhp figure, unfortunate but it could not be helped & thats life I suppose
But a few good things did come out of it.....It made 500 n/m of torque! This in Ian's opinion shows that the engine is running very well & the map/tune must have been stonking to produce such figures. (@ 1.6 bar boost) He even commented that this is what his Type 20 produces with a bigger turbo, albeit with similar hp figures though. He would rather trade 20 bhp for those torque figures & I am hoping that the bhp figures may have been adversley affected by the length of time & subsequent heat in engine etc. Its not scientific as not the same rollers/fuel/ambient temp but I am now going to the DSA rolling road day on the 18th April just to satisfy my curiosity more than anything else!
A sidenote: Ian & Rich also commented on the exhaust being an unkown quantity to them as they do not know the design & flow etc of the Hayward & scott exhaust & whether there are any restrictions in the bellmouth downpipe or where for e.g the flange join tapers down to less than 3" etc. Had it been a Miltek we could have ruled this issue out.
Finally & most importantly....................................... .................................................t he car has turned into an absoloute beast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:notwor thy
Any gear; any revs; any speed.....the dam thing pulls like a train.....the acceleration is relentless. I have a new favourite gear,.......6th gear.....it pulls in 6th like never before, all the way up to silly figures, where before the twin scroll turbo would run out of puff a lot lot earlier. And the sound now of the turbo is frigtening....its like Iv got Wolverine in the engine bay howling & snarling & gnawing its teeth while the exhaust note has changed to a Mescesshmit in full attack mode!!!!! This is what drives our petrol fuelled passion & makes it all worthwhile........
Got there at 9am they started Asap & I popped into town in their Impreza Classic courtesty car for a spot of breakfast & had a look at some Koeinesggs & a Pagazonda at the Aston Martin garage!
Before lunch they had done the oil service; general inspection; some work on the alarm; fitted a Prodrive 3 port boost solenoid & Forge Uprated Actuator, all according to plan so far. ps Also fiteed last week by member Woodbutch, Hayward & Scott 3" full decat exhaust system with jap exit angled backbox. (Heat wrapped downpipe with bellmouth design).
After reading Shauns Spec C project car thread & basing my mods on his, I was hoping for plus 360 bhp, like his. (apart from the resonated centre section in my exhaust which he did not have. Also he was at the time on a Scoobysport exhaust but it is very similar to H&S) But here's where things dont always go according to plan
Got to Powerstation after lunch & got on the rollers at 2pm with Rich mapping. Got the car set up but couldnt find their existing map on ECU. So we had to start a new map from scratch with the idea of running it as close to 1.6 bar peak after my discussions with Shaun. After 1.5 hours on the dyno we could not get very good figures at all & as the session progressed we found the engine to be pinking & ECU retarding ignition at one point by 10 degrees. Rich even heard some knock so things wer'nt going too well. Rich put the problem down, most probably to contaminated fuel. Earlier in the morning I had filled up with Vpower in Pinner, Middx but it is a small Shell garage. After a quick discussion about my rising costs of the remap & the predicament I was in (I couldnt really drive home with the car like this) we came to an agreement on price with Rich being quite reasonable & he did not charge for the whole 3hours I was there!! (In fact he charged a whole lot less!)
So we drained the half tank of fuel remaining; I went down to another Shell garge; filled up again & back on the dyno at 4pm with me pacing up & down the dyno cell like an expectant father. This time, hey presto, no pinking, no ingnition retardation, in fact it advanced ignition by 7 degrees. So thats one problem solved. Now back to mapping. Finally at 4.45 pm, after testing everyting, including actuator pressure we managed a bhp figure of 340bhp at the flywheel. To be honest I was dissapointed, I was hoping for approx 360 bhp plus. Rich on the other hand wasnt & did not expect much more than 345 bhp as he said most make around that figure. Some have made more, but this is not an exact science, especially when not comparing like for like. After speaking to Ian today I feel even better, his opinion is that due to the dodgy fuel problem, I unnfortunately had the car running in the dyno cell for pretty much 3 hours, with a run to the petrol station in between & then getting a final run max bhp figure. This will generate a lot of heat in the process & is not ideal for me to get a max bhp figure, unfortunate but it could not be helped & thats life I suppose
But a few good things did come out of it.....It made 500 n/m of torque! This in Ian's opinion shows that the engine is running very well & the map/tune must have been stonking to produce such figures. (@ 1.6 bar boost) He even commented that this is what his Type 20 produces with a bigger turbo, albeit with similar hp figures though. He would rather trade 20 bhp for those torque figures & I am hoping that the bhp figures may have been adversley affected by the length of time & subsequent heat in engine etc. Its not scientific as not the same rollers/fuel/ambient temp but I am now going to the DSA rolling road day on the 18th April just to satisfy my curiosity more than anything else!
A sidenote: Ian & Rich also commented on the exhaust being an unkown quantity to them as they do not know the design & flow etc of the Hayward & scott exhaust & whether there are any restrictions in the bellmouth downpipe or where for e.g the flange join tapers down to less than 3" etc. Had it been a Miltek we could have ruled this issue out.
Finally & most importantly....................................... .................................................t he car has turned into an absoloute beast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:notwor thy
Any gear; any revs; any speed.....the dam thing pulls like a train.....the acceleration is relentless. I have a new favourite gear,.......6th gear.....it pulls in 6th like never before, all the way up to silly figures, where before the twin scroll turbo would run out of puff a lot lot earlier. And the sound now of the turbo is frigtening....its like Iv got Wolverine in the engine bay howling & snarling & gnawing its teeth while the exhaust note has changed to a Mescesshmit in full attack mode!!!!! This is what drives our petrol fuelled passion & makes it all worthwhile........
09 April 2009, 03:32 PM
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Cool !
I too enjoy the "theatrical" performance of a modded car, mine chatters and farts like a crazy thing, VTA DV is quiet compared to the turbo's asthmatic antics !
dunx
P.S. 500 Nm is that around 360 ft.lb ?, that's what mine made too !
I too enjoy the "theatrical" performance of a modded car, mine chatters and farts like a crazy thing, VTA DV is quiet compared to the turbo's asthmatic antics !
dunx
P.S. 500 Nm is that around 360 ft.lb ?, that's what mine made too !
Last edited by dunx; 09 April 2009 at 03:35 PM.
09 April 2009, 03:44 PM
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As normal very good write up from you sir! Shame on the power as i know you was really looking forward to 370bhp but these car's never do what we want them to!!!
If you ever want to take mine for a spin let me know but i think guv has first drive
Ash
If you ever want to take mine for a spin let me know but i think guv has first drive
Ash
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09 April 2009, 03:49 PM
#8
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I replied to your message you sent me via my garage or something (it was not a normal Pm though and I am not able to see your original message or the one I sent back to you?!?!)
Anyway.....
To what I said in the message:
Regarding your figures...
Personally I am not a fan of aftermarket TMIC's as I found the standard STi one to be more than adequate and proven. Whilst I never tested the Hyperflow one, I did test some others and they were crap!
The H&S exhaust I have not tested, but again an exhaust is more than just a bit of pipe. I know the Miltek ones do the job as does the ScoobySport.
It would seem that your engine is not producing the goods at the top end, and it would be interesting to know what boost it was achieving at high rpm. I suspect that if nothing was wrong with the exhaust or turbo, then ignition was being pulled, boost targets was not being met or a combination of this due to heat soak. I have got to be honest though, I never saw drops of 20bhp on PowerStation's rolling road because of heatsoak when I was testing.... and my car was on that RR for day's at a time at one stage (for Stage 1 & 2).
Try it on another day on the RR and ensure you get the boost plot, as this will help to see what is going on and whether some restriction is going on.
Anyway.....
To what I said in the message:
Regarding your figures...
Personally I am not a fan of aftermarket TMIC's as I found the standard STi one to be more than adequate and proven. Whilst I never tested the Hyperflow one, I did test some others and they were crap!
The H&S exhaust I have not tested, but again an exhaust is more than just a bit of pipe. I know the Miltek ones do the job as does the ScoobySport.
It would seem that your engine is not producing the goods at the top end, and it would be interesting to know what boost it was achieving at high rpm. I suspect that if nothing was wrong with the exhaust or turbo, then ignition was being pulled, boost targets was not being met or a combination of this due to heat soak. I have got to be honest though, I never saw drops of 20bhp on PowerStation's rolling road because of heatsoak when I was testing.... and my car was on that RR for day's at a time at one stage (for Stage 1 & 2).
Try it on another day on the RR and ensure you get the boost plot, as this will help to see what is going on and whether some restriction is going on.
09 April 2009, 04:11 PM
#10
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Just checking my graph for Stage 1 with:
ScoobySport Decat 3"
K&N Panel Filter
3 Port Boost Solenoid
Uprated Actuator
The car achieved 360bhp/354lbft @ 1.6bar peak boost, but this was on Optimax. On VPower I would expect a tad more power.
Now your torque is slightly better because I believe they made revisions to the Spec C heads on your year engine to increase torque.
Your power curve is **** on with mine to 5500rpm, but whilst mine kept climbing, yours drops and levels out. That could be either a restriction/flow issue or heat/tmic issues. It may even be a turbo related issue if boost is not being held.
HTH
ScoobySport Decat 3"
K&N Panel Filter
3 Port Boost Solenoid
Uprated Actuator
The car achieved 360bhp/354lbft @ 1.6bar peak boost, but this was on Optimax. On VPower I would expect a tad more power.
Now your torque is slightly better because I believe they made revisions to the Spec C heads on your year engine to increase torque.
Your power curve is **** on with mine to 5500rpm, but whilst mine kept climbing, yours drops and levels out. That could be either a restriction/flow issue or heat/tmic issues. It may even be a turbo related issue if boost is not being held.
HTH
09 April 2009, 04:40 PM
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TBH mate, I know you're a little disappointed with the final power figure, but with all that torque are you really bothered. Take it up to Well Lane and their dyno will have it running at 400+ BHP
You have to remember that compared to other newages you are running a lighter car too, apart from that 'kin heavy intercooler, but your power-to-weight ratio is going to be good. Just need to strip some of the rubbish out like the back seats, change the front ones for carbon shelled lightweight race seats etc.
Don't blame me for that credit card, I only sow the seeds, you can be the reaper
You have to remember that compared to other newages you are running a lighter car too, apart from that 'kin heavy intercooler, but your power-to-weight ratio is going to be good. Just need to strip some of the rubbish out like the back seats, change the front ones for carbon shelled lightweight race seats etc.
Don't blame me for that credit card, I only sow the seeds, you can be the reaper
09 April 2009, 04:59 PM
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Good write up Rick.......got me burning a hole in my pocket now, i want a 3 port solenoid, headers, uprated actuator and remap toooooo
does the 'higher bar' actuator help at all at holding the boost through the revs along with the 3 port Boost solenoid?
at 1.6 bar you mest be well chufffed and pushed in your seat, any flames spotted then?
does the 'higher bar' actuator help at all at holding the boost through the revs along with the 3 port Boost solenoid?
at 1.6 bar you mest be well chufffed and pushed in your seat, any flames spotted then?
09 April 2009, 05:25 PM
#17
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If it's holding 1.4bar at the top end then there is nothing wrong with the turbo / actuator / flow then.
Last edited by Shaun; 09 April 2009 at 05:25 PM. Reason: can't spell
09 April 2009, 05:27 PM
#18
No flames or pops unfortunately! We were too busy trying to get the map right that didnt really think about it!! Maybe next time.
In near future will be changing backbox to Miltek as current one will get me thrown off every track! More importantly welding a flange joint into H&S mid section where there is currently a sleeve joint that must reduce down in size from 3" to h&S sleeve jointed backbox
Shaun if you think turbo is ok then I think problem is exhaust related as described above or heat soak
In near future will be changing backbox to Miltek as current one will get me thrown off every track! More importantly welding a flange joint into H&S mid section where there is currently a sleeve joint that must reduce down in size from 3" to h&S sleeve jointed backbox
Shaun if you think turbo is ok then I think problem is exhaust related as described above or heat soak
Last edited by rickya; 09 April 2009 at 05:28 PM.
09 April 2009, 05:40 PM
#19
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Back box will not make much difference to noise level mate for track. I can't get mine below 103db and I have changed the whole exhaust and different parts of the exhaust several times. It's the headers that make the scream unfortunately (or fortunately lol).
I ran my current engine at 1bar and 5degs of ignition out and still got kicked off at Dono only using 3/4 revs (103db). I suspect I will have to bang a bung in, but I need to then be careful of backpressure and heat increase.... it should be more straight forward with you and a bung. If you go the Miltek route (which my full system is Miltek now) Iain sells the bung for this system.
I ran my current engine at 1bar and 5degs of ignition out and still got kicked off at Dono only using 3/4 revs (103db). I suspect I will have to bang a bung in, but I need to then be careful of backpressure and heat increase.... it should be more straight forward with you and a bung. If you go the Miltek route (which my full system is Miltek now) Iain sells the bung for this system.
09 April 2009, 05:42 PM
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Rickya mine peaks at 1.6 and levels out to 1.4 so from what you describe with yours I wouldnt have thought it would be turbo related it would be intresting to see the results from swapping back to a miltek as for heatsoak after a hard blat round a track a few times you do notice the powerdrop back a bit, but let it cool down and then its back to normal
09 April 2009, 05:50 PM
#21
On another note Shaun (and sorry to hijack), are/were you running the Turbo Dynamics MD555?
09 April 2009, 05:53 PM
#22
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Lunar,
Based on the results of my Hyperflow FMIC I would of hoped that their TMIC would be good.... as you suggest, perhaps it actually works unlike some of the others out there.
Never ran a MD555. Twinscroll on the 2ltr was the original VF and then a TD Hybrid. On the current Cosworth Engine it has been AET all the way.
Based on the results of my Hyperflow FMIC I would of hoped that their TMIC would be good.... as you suggest, perhaps it actually works unlike some of the others out there.
Never ran a MD555. Twinscroll on the 2ltr was the original VF and then a TD Hybrid. On the current Cosworth Engine it has been AET all the way.
09 April 2009, 08:05 PM
#25
AFAIKR, Rich @ Powerstation clamped off the actuator at a certain revs & held it to see what pressure it would hold & he said this one was fine & holding very good pressure.
Apologies if not properly explained as Im not much of an expert on the subject.
Apologies if not properly explained as Im not much of an expert on the subject.
thanks for the early morning wake up this morning lol
09 April 2009, 08:29 PM
#27
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Interesting point on the V-Power
I have STI PPP mapped by Bob Rawle, and always filled up from the same Shell station, anyway just recently i felt it had not been running that well, and the car felt more like it did with the Prodrive map on not a huge difference but just felt it had lost a bit of sharpness, to the point where i took it to a local specialist to check for leaks etc etc, anyhow the guy couldn't find anything was very apologetic and only charged a few £ for his time, So started thinking it must be me and I'm used to it now, i then decided to use a different Shell station thats always busy, and hey presto half a tank later it was pulling well again, almost like a a new map had been put on
I have STI PPP mapped by Bob Rawle, and always filled up from the same Shell station, anyway just recently i felt it had not been running that well, and the car felt more like it did with the Prodrive map on not a huge difference but just felt it had lost a bit of sharpness, to the point where i took it to a local specialist to check for leaks etc etc, anyhow the guy couldn't find anything was very apologetic and only charged a few £ for his time, So started thinking it must be me and I'm used to it now, i then decided to use a different Shell station thats always busy, and hey presto half a tank later it was pulling well again, almost like a a new map had been put on
10 April 2009, 07:51 AM
#28
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Lunar,
It was a development spec, but is now widely available from AET. Based on the complete spec of my engine (with turbo), I do not know of any other Scoob car that has the low down grunt and still manages to break 500bhp as mine, with a standard position turbo on normal VPower. Awesome turbo in my opinion.
Bluenose172,
I had a choice of springs that were tried.... perhaps it was a one off duff.
It was a development spec, but is now widely available from AET. Based on the complete spec of my engine (with turbo), I do not know of any other Scoob car that has the low down grunt and still manages to break 500bhp as mine, with a standard position turbo on normal VPower. Awesome turbo in my opinion.
Bluenose172,
I had a choice of springs that were tried.... perhaps it was a one off duff.
