Hi

The traffic consultation for Edinburgh ends tomorrow.

If the council gets its way - we will all pay £2 to get into the city or possibly just to cross the by-pass !!

For me, that means £2 evey time I go to the supermarket !!! - Surely its not fair to penalise people for living in the city.

Log onto the consultation at http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/traffic/

Have your say !!!

Thanks

Wendy

 

According to the Evening News, the council have already made up their minds and the voting has been accused of being rigged.
Also, why would they advertise a consultancy post if the debate has not been concluded ?

It's been decided behind closed doors in my opinion and this is just going through due process to appease the public.

I for one will not be paying f*ck all when I live here. I pay my dues as it is!

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have to pay to get OUT of Edinburgh?

 

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/traffic/HYS/page3.html

 

Typical rigged questionnaire . No opportunity to offer alternative suggestions. IMHO, the decisions have already been taken. We should all buy old buses for driving into town - no congestion charges, break down where you like

 

What a joke

I'll simply not bother travelling into Edinburgh when I want to go shopping - IMHO retailers in Edinburgh (especially those outside the Princes Street areas) will feel the effect of this the most. Glasgow retailers must be rubbing their hands in glee!

 

Gza

If it works in Edinburgh, Glasgow won't be far behind them

Paul

 

I travel to work every day from Fife to the Gyle and it looks like the demarcation point will be the bypass. If this is the case I may park my car on the airport road and walk the 100yds to save the £2. I already have to pay for fuel costs to sit in traffic and also for the bridge fees. It may soon be not worth my while going to work. I can become a man of leisure and let the wife work(I wish). I think it is ridiculous that they have already made up their minds and we do not get a say.

I for one am against this as they will have to spend even more money to get a little more in. Secondly they will have to build tolls in which will cause more chaos in construction and this is supposed to stop traffic congestion but we will have to sit in a q at the tolls now instead of the junctions.

I am so pi**d off with this as my work will not let me work from home.

(descends from soapbox still shaking with anger)

and yes I have sent a leaflet back stating my anger but will it achieve anything??????????? NO

Graham
AKA Taz
AKA Mr Angry

 

Just gave them another piece of my mind online(not a lot left)

Mr Angry

 

See

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=117837

 

In repsonse to Imlach's thread...

As a full time and fully qualified environmental consultant I spend my day evaluating the 'Best Practical Environmental option'.

So whilst in I may to some extent agree with your thoughts on urban car use - the proposals put forward by Edinburgh will not alleviate urban pollution or congestion but cause more problems. Even the literature published by the council shows that congestion will increase in some areas!

My argument with the proposal is of freedom of choice and lack of consulation publicity. As we do not live a dictatorship we should be given the choice !!! Pricing people out of the market, by increasing the cost of private vehicle ownership leads to significant inequalities and problems of social injustice. Whilst the 'polluter should pay' - we are all polluters directly or indirectly due the society we live in and the life styles we lead.

(I will now remove my soap box)



[Edited by sexy-blue-scoob - 7/30/2002 1:45:49 PM]

 

I would love the council to put down dedicated cycle lanes KERBED off from the main roads on EVERY main route....

I'm sure a lot more cautious people would cycle who are currently wary of traffic in the city......

I'd love an underground too.....

All pipe-dreams.

 

It needs a complete mindset change from the public for this all to work.

"I won't use public transport until it is a viable alternative to the car" is what many say. But this is impossible. People have to accept a small "hit" to their travel time.

Some people at my work have a frequent & rapid bus route to work on their doorstep - yet still they choose to drive. What will make these folks EVER stop using the car???? Some have a direct rail link...and don't use it.

So the moans of "lets have better public transport first" are unfounded in many cases....they're just too lazy to adapt and can't get away from the comfort of the car.....very unfriendly.

Think about it folks!!!





[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 2:02:18 PM]

[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 2:03:27 PM]

 

What get's me is this:

The system is intended to curb the amount of traffic entering Edinburgh by charging for the priveledge.
Now, the scheme is based on revenue being generated from this, and the council when they first came up with this bright idea came up with the expected figures they hope to make from it.

However, here's the crunch.

In effect, they are actually ENCOURAGING road use in order to generate the revenue and justify the scheme, otherwise they'd make nothing !!!!

Go figure.....

 

Looks a bit like a grand plan for Edinburgh council to make money to me too !!

 

It's a very tricky one I admit.

If charging was in place, would it actually make you think twice about your journey???? If so, surely it has had the desired effect?

Also, will taxis be exempt? Would there be an increase in taxi numbers? They are just as bad as are same size as car and often carry only 1 person....and lower classes can't afford them.

Good point about revenue v traffic level though :-)

 

Sexy blue scoob : remember, charging will only be in force during peak and/or daytime hours - surely you can go to the supermarket outwith these hours or at the weekends?

You could also consider the heavy stuff to be delivered and get the light stuff some other way or from local shops. Or get the heavy stuff once a month - stocking up so to speak.

Lots of options.....think about it...just needs thought.

 

The point I was trying to make about the supermarket - was that in many cases traffic would be taken off major roads and onto minor roads, increasing congestion !!

By forcing people to travel at certain times of the day (after 7pm) the council directly effects my personal choice and the way I live my life. Should I stop running kids ski club on a monday night - because I have to pay - or according to you should I only run it after 7pm (unrealistic!!).

The council are penalising those who can pay !!! - why not charge people extra with older and more polluting cars ??? Rather than charging those who all ready pay a fortune to drive ! (we all know how much money it costs to keep a scooby and the stringent emission testing we go through !)

 

It's your choice to pay a fortune to drive a Scooby.
Why should you be exempt?

Hillend is outwith the boundary is it not?

Your car is a privilege, and NOT a right, and if you can't agree with that, then it's a fairly selfish stance to take.



[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 4:47:25 PM]

 

I'll post this here too....from a friend at work - counter argument.

> In summary, this is a dumbed down attempt to bias people to
> vote in favour of the "big green improvement" option without
> a fair consideration of the alternatives or of the impact
> that charging would have on city centre businesses.

You're right, but probably wrong to expect a 'public consultation' to be anything otherwise. I would support the right of the executive to consult in the manner they see fit, then proceed with their plans and see what happens at the next local election. If the right to free road use is as close to everyone's heart as the 'poor overtaxed motorist' lobby make out then it'll be an easy vote winner for the opposition.

Off the top of my head I can think of three alternative ideas, all less desirable:

1. Business as usual. With world oil production now at peak [1] and terminal decline maybe a decade away, an ever-increasing demand is likely to yield a repeating cycle of oil price shocks and recessions. How will city centre businesses like that?

2. Fund public transport improvements some other way, either privately or from council or income tax. Also known as 'subsidise the motorist even more' [2]

3. Revive the Tories' 1970s plans to build a big motorway on stilts across the Meadows. It was a bad idea then and they're not getting many local votes even now.

Congestion charging isn't without its problems but is the only realistic idea I've heard so far which acts as both carrot and stick. For all the whinging there are very few constructive alternative proposals. And the world oil picture indicates that like it or not, we have no option but to reduce fuel consumption in the coming decades anyway. (Why else would Bush have a big solar-powered ranch in Texas?)

As for a 'city devoid of facilities', other places around the world have experienced just the opposite by restricting car use; we'll have to see what happens here. If the people of Bogotá can see that all but banning cars from the city [3] will reduce social exclusion and improve their quality of life, then surely we in relatively safe and comfortable Edinburgh can afford a teensy bit of vision as well?



[1] http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/domino/html/research.nsf/DocID/B82535700D9B379786256B1F004CD51E/$File/196.pdf
[2] http://www.flora.org/afo/cc0.html
[3] http://ecoplan.org/votebogota2000/vb2_index.htm

 

( Originally posted in the parallel thread on 'unrelated', but wanted to voice here too )

Someone argued that taking a bus only adds a few minutes to the journey and that car drivers should be more patient.... not where I live and work !!! It takes me over an hour and at least 1 change to get to work by bus, and that's if they come !! It takes between 10 and 15 mins by car. Getting home is even worse - it took me over 2 hours once (I walked it as no buses turned up !!). I don't live/work in the sticks - I live within the bypass (nr fairmilehead) and work in Currie. I don't want to lose 3 hours out my day - am I selfish ? I agree that if I was sitting in a line of traffic for 45 mins when a bus trip would take 60 mins, then the bus would sometimes be more sensible, but that's not the case for most people. The public transport service is pretty crap for most journeys UNLESS you are going straight into town and live on a main route. I really don't think I'm a unique case.

I will potentially be charged 2 quid to get HOME from work, as I work outside the bypass, and live inside it (unless I work till after 7, but I don't fancy that every night thanks) !! Maybe I'll end up parking on Lanark Road on the inside of the bypass and get a bus up the final 2 miles !! How will that help ease congestion ??
I really don't understand the idea of charging to cross the bypass !! Are they suggesting this so the other option seems more attractive ?

The cycling idea is great except we live in Scotland !! I have a colleague who cycles to work most days (he's a very kean cyclist who has cycled coast to coast across America) but even he says that he couldn't do it every day. Too wet a lot of the time, and pretty tricky if you've got any kind of load to carry (not to mention the danger factors)! Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't go for the 'it only rains 6 times in the summer' line (on the other post)- Which Edinburgh do you stay in ?? Certainly not the same one I do !!
I'd love to cycle to work, it would be a good way to stay fit etc etc... but not every office has shower facilities, and the idea of walking in dripping wet and frozen really doesn't appeal (and I'm talking about the summer !!).

And to answer another couple of points - I don't think sexy-blue-scoob was asking for concessions for being a scooby driver, but making the point that most of us already pay a shed load for insurance (which is taxed), fuel (which is taxed) and the highest road tax band (not to mention that a lot of us will be on high income tax band). Why not impose higher tax on the cars that are actually polluting ? Take any pre 1990 vehicle and I bet it is putting out a load more harmfull emissions than any of our cars. This would seem more relevant if the arguement really is that cars are polluting the environment and should be discouraged. More likely they're just trying to suck more money out the people who can pay, rather than actually adressing the roor problem. How much more tax will people tolerate before they start emigrating - I like Scotland, but there are plenty other countries around who could benefit from my skills and knowlege and wouldn't encourage me to stay there, not sting me with more and more taxes because of my success.

Moving onto another point... Hillend is outwith the boundary, but most of Edinburgh is within it, so most will have to pay to go home !!

Maybe the car is a priviledge, but we already pay dearly for it as mentioned above. Where do you draw the line ? Is a computer a priviledge too - should we all pay an extra tax for that ?
Is a bike a priviledge ? I've always thought that they should pay road tax - they use the roads - why shouldn't they pay ?
The car has become and every day part of life, and while I agree that we shouldn't use it un-necessarily, I think these proposals will do nothing but generate money to throw into the local government black hole. The cash won't go back into public transport or anything relevant, it'll disappear along with road tax money and all the other 'driving' taxes.

Ok I'm done ranting... My biggest gripe though, is that I really don't believe this has been thought through and evaluated in any way. Someone had the brightr idea and now it's being bulldozered through. That's what happened with catalytic converters, and anyone who knows anything about lean burn engines will know how much of a mistake that was !!

Whew, I'm going home !!

 

Scooby Dooby Blue - I can't let that go - I can't let someone from DUNDEE slag off Edinburgh, are you for real?

You would have to PAY ME to go to DUNDEE, universally acknowdeged as the **** hole of Scotland.

As for the bypass there is no way I'd pay £2 to go down that road every day, I'd rather move to FIFE.

IMLACH - you should really get out more.

[Edited by McCrash - 7/30/2002 9:28:34 PM]

 

Does a bus come to your house and pick you up when it's pi**ing down,i think not.
It's a disgrace if they get away with this.I feel sorry for the people this will affect.
My company sends between 4-6 trucks to Edinburgh daily.Who foots the bill?,inevitably it will be the customer on the street.
The council should put signs up at the Gyle welcoming you to Rip-off Edinburgh.

 

Folks!!!

Rain - it's just a bit of water.....
Why does the world have to change when it rains!!!

...and you tell me to get out more!!!!

Sounds like you all like to stay indoors in your warm houses/cars/offices and be mollycoddled!

Let me tell you a story - a Subaru owning driving enthusiast mate had his driving licence revoked for medical reasons for a short period of time. Cut him up. ie, he was forced to look into alternatives means of transport. He didn't know how he'd cope as
he'd used his car every day for years & years.

He now copes admirably, and even although he can drive again, he hasn't done so because he has been enlightened into what one can do without the "dreaded" car. He isn't totally a "green-nut" but he made me think, and I've now started cycling a lot more just to follow his lead.

Just goes to show that one horrible thing that happened to him has turned him around the other way and can now see the other "greener" viewpoints. I totally admire him for it.

I wouldn't wish his fate on anyone, but I do wish some of you would try and see the other side instead of thinking about No.1 and ME ME ME all the time.

After all, if there was less congestion, then we wouldn't have this plan in the first place!!! Is public transport today really THAT worse than it was 30 years ago - is it the councils fault that we as a society have become so reliant on the car???
A large amount of journeys are short local trips that are totally unnecessary to be done by car. Just cos it's too easy to jump in your car on the drive...

Even 1 journey saved a week would be a start. Think about it.


[Edited by imlach - 7/30/2002 11:27:22 PM]

 

Mc Crash,

Don't go to Fife as that is where I stay and you get shafted even more...ie Bridge, stuck in traffic on the M90 and now this cr*p.

Imlach,

I do not choose to come to Edinburgh in fact I would love to work from home as it would save me a whole lot of hassle and money and I could possibly afford to run a Scoob again(I WISH!!!). I work for a comms company who advertise about getting workforces to work from home but it will not let it's own employees do it. The cost of living is rising at an alarming rate but my wages go up in minute amounts. As I ststed in the last post I work at the Gyle and I would have to pay £2 for the last 100yds of a 35 mile journey.

Why does the Scottish government encourage large companies to move their businesses out of Edinburgh(because they get more money from the companies and now they are going to tax the employees to get to work). They win all around(greedy b********)


Graham

 

Imalch-

I (and am sure everybody else here) have absolutly nothing against
people who dont want to drive all the time. There is nothing wrong
with these people cycling or using buses etc.
However you seem to have no respect for how we want to travel.

There is nothing that angers me more than people who force their
opinions on others. Its no better than Little Hitlers etc. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

You have your point of view, we have ours.
We shouldnt be forced into your point of view through toll charges.
We dont say to you that you shouldnt cycle do we?

(PS If anybody thinks that these toll charges are there for any
other reason than to fill the council's coffers then they are
very naive. )

 

I often wonder if the same discussions arose when parking meters were introduced into the centre of Edinburgh....

...but we all (begrudgingly) seem to accept these now that we're used to it. ie, if you don't want to pay to park in town, you can choose to walk/take public transport. The same argument applies to road tolls surely.

You're said : "However you seem to have no respect for how we want to travel". This is missing the point - why do you feel you are entitled to use your car anywhere you like? You're not entitled to park in the centre of Edinburgh for free and yet people accept the charges there. I own a car, I pay my tax just like everyone else, but something has to be done to decrease urban car usage.

I am not trying to be a "little hitler" as you put it. I am merely trying to oppose the "car is king" viewpoint that many seem to have when it comes to urban car use. You can choose to ignore me as you please, but as I've said before, to reduce congestion etc, it does need some level of commitment from the public en masse. I'm sure most take the view of "why should I do it". That is one for your conscience.

I am not opposing all car use whatsoever - just questioning urban car use (ie, very central) - ie, I have no problem with people using a car to get from Fairmilehead to Currie, as I realise that'd involve a 52 bus, then a 44/45 as well. Not ideal.

My argument earlier went off on a tangent from the actual tolls themselves to presenting a viewpoint that the Scottish Office are trying to push themselves at the moment - ie, trying to reduce car use overall throughout Scotland in an effort to reduce congestion, pollution, and increase public health (both personal and en-masse) - surely a worthy cause?

 

All,

IF (and it's a BIG IF) there was a decent alternative (by decent I mean Affordable, Safe & convenient) to the car I would use it. I used to live 20 miles outside of Aberdeen and on Several occaisions took the bus into the city centre. Return trip cost £6 it took 1 hour and 20 minutes (car took 30 minutes) was dropped about a mile from where I wanted to be and usually got assaulted / threatened on the way home by all the other pi$$heads on the bus ! (oh and come close to pissing myself as there's no toilet and bladder usually still had about 4 pints in it )

Jase
ps Maybe busses are better in Edinburgh but I doubt it
pps The real answer is car sharing - when the fuel blockades were on three of us that lived in the same area shared cars and took turns driving - 2/3 of our cars taken off the roads during rush hour and no REAL inconvenience !

 

Yeah I would.........

Pubs in Birkenhead are crap



Graham

 

Agreed - car sharing is a good alternative, but again, depends on individual circumstances. Can save you a fortune in fuel costs though. Many at our work do it successfully - I know it can be a pain sometimes if you have to stay late.....

However, many at our work find it MAKES them work more regular hours so that they don't miss their lift home - not a bad idea from that perspective. as well.