Thought this should perhaps be in the Drivetrain thread but due to the local content I thought I'd post here............

Went over to Star yesterday, managed to do a power run with my car.

My car is a MY00 with K&N panel filter, full Magnex decat and running Super unleaded.

Norm Power 254.5 BHP (245.5) (pre Dawes figures in brackets)
Engine Output 251.5 BHP (231)
Wheel Output 162.5 BHP (154)
Max power at 115mph/6420rpm (108mph/5990rpm)
Max torque 246lb-ft (239)
Max torque at 58mph/3280rpm (62mph/3420rpm)

The rolling road didn't have a temperature correction this time therefore the result is approx 3% low in comparison to my last run and all the shootout days previously.

The proof is in the print out (if I ever learn how I'll post it here). The torque curve is much flatter than before with 1.1bar peak dropping back to 1 bar to just below 6000rpm. This results in the torque curve staying above 225lb-ft until around 5750rpm.

Gains aren't massive but it's the best £30 I've spent on the car

 

bloody good results,but then your car has alwasys been far better than everybody elses MY00,not far from john banks PPP,d/p and dawes.dawes do a fuel cut lifter valve,allowing you to raise overboost to say 19psi,so that you can run 17/18psi.

 

Good results - top end is at least as good as the run I did at Star. I'll be interested to see what my car runs with tightened actuator which has upped the top end boost to what you are posting here. I might try and run with a prototype fuel computer at some point to run 8% CO at the top end rather than 10%, and some booster to stop the two retard points there were on my plot. What sort of intercooler cooling fan was there this time? I would be unhappy to lean it out unless they have improved it.

 

Chris,

Did you fit the Dawes yourself? and where did you get it from? Performance Exhausts?

Also, what meters have you got to watch for any nasties?

Cheers,
Stefan

 

John,
Jim didn't have his new intercooler fan yet so my run was using the 10"-ish flexi duct run on to the intercooler, bonnet up.

Ozzy,
Fitted the Dawes myself, but set it up with Dave Brown's help (AWD Perth) using a Subaru select monitor. I have not adjusted the Dawes since then as I don't have an AFR meter in my car. The Dawes was from the States although I bought it from someone in Scotland who ordered it but decided not to fit it to his car.

All,
Not too sure about fuel cut lift valves, can a standard ECU fuel ok above 16psi?? Obviously an AFR meter would also be required but you must be getting close to knock etc???? Would that be the next stage for me......fuel cut lift, knock link & lamda link?

Has anyone fitted one of these fuel cut lifter thingys?

 

chris,

it is thought that the standard ECU will fuel quite happily up to fuel cut(17,5psi ish on later cars),so if you could lift the cut to 19/20psi,then you could run near to this without fear of boost cut while over taking.the dawes fuel lifter goes in the line to the map sensor.as with any mods there are risks,so a afm and knocklink would be needed.I actually think this would be safer than a superchip as the fuel cut is only lifted.the only problem is that you would have to be brave enough to find the new fuel cut limit and adjust similar to the mbc,to the desired cut point.

some people are now thinking that the PPP ECU is a standard ECU plus a bit more boost.

 

...although Prodrive say the timing and fuelling are remapped, you'd hope they were for the price.

 

agreed.

I would feel happier with a PPP ECU in my car rather than a tricked map sensor too,even if it was for only a small percentage of the time.

I just thought I would mention it,as the results from the dawes mbc and afm's are so good,that it might be worth looking at this too.

 

john,

did stephen not say that a PPP ECU was basically a bit more boost with no proof of other changes?

 

He said it was the same software but a different map IIRC. Mike Wood directly said it was a remap.

 

I was referring to the MY01. The 99/00 PPP is a full and proper remapped ECU.

Steve

 

I'm interested in your comments about the Dawes...

I haven't tried one. What is it that you like about them, apart from the price of course ? Do you feel that they have other advantages ?

E.g. Do you find that you get overshoot above the value you set on the Dawes, or does it regulate very tightly ? If so, I am wondering whether, now that we can remap 99/00 ecus, whether a combination solution with low down dawes boost control with the controlled hi rpm tail-off of the ECU is worth investigating.

Just a thought

Steve

 

oops my mistake.

steve,
have you tested a MY99/00 PPP ECU,similarly to the test you did in the multiple ECU thread? I and john banks have similar cars,bar the ECU and since fitting the ae800 MY99 ECU,I find my car as strong as his off boost by seat of pants o meter,on boost his car is still stronger as he can run more with out fear of hitting overboost cut.

 

Hi John,

It would worry me to remove the ability of the ecu to reduce the boost if it feels the urge. ECUs can reduce the boost if they are seeing knock for example.

If I were to use a Dawes and an original ECU, I would like the valves in series rather than parallel, so if either one of them wants to _reduce_ boost, it can.

You could for example program the original ecu with a very high boost figure at low RPMs (say 18PSI) - this would allow the Dawes to regulate boost at low revs, getting the kind of spool up you guys like. Then, further up the rev range, the ECU can reduce the boost as it chooses, tailing it off to say 7/8PSI at the limiter for engine longevity.

If the car then encounters a fault condition (potentially catastrophic otherwise) it can reduce the boost as it chooses, and at any RPM.

Anyway, at 292BHP and 300lbft on std turbo & fmic, I think I'll leave the Dawes off for now :-)

By the way John, during spool up, you can get the standard ECU to keep the wastegate open - that's not a problem. Wastegate duties used are RPM and load dependant - you just have to make sure that the values you use start falling as the turbo _really_ starts pumping, so that you catch the overshoot.

The ProDrive ECU is an STI item. I don't think they ever let anyone outside Japan program these things, and that includes ProDrive - anyone correct me if I am wrong. Obviously the STI item is a great improvement over standard, because of: More boost, less fuel on full load, and more ignition advance. The fuel cut limit is also extended. Sorry, I'm not publishing data on this - I don't think it would be appreciated.

Cheers

Steve

 

Stephen,
Your figures of 292BHP and 300lbft on std turbo & fmic, is that only an ECU remap? If so is it the £500 remap PE are selling?
What sort of exhaust/air filter are you running?
Is it a generic map i.e. surely the figure will vary with different exhaust set ups etc?
Were your power figures measured at PE? It would be interesting to get a before and after comparison at Stars RR.
Apologies for all the questions but I'm very interested in gettin figures like yours!
Thanks,
Chris

 

There is no doubt your results are very good Steve. I think on the same rolling road my car as it is now would top 280 at 18 PSI in the midrange - the difference I could blame on your manifold I haven't seen your boost curve though. I am only running 14.5 PSI at 6000rpm - she will not flow any more! I could not chase those torque figures of yours without silly boost I don't think.

What would really interest me is to see what a Dawes on a MY99 ECU does with 17-18 PSI midrange.

I know the EMS cars got some of the highest figures at Powerstation for UK cars on standard turbo and intercooler - they were running higher boost on std ECU.

I have no doubt though that by you tidying up the fuelling and timing it gives you a fair bit more (as well as mapping properly for induction kit and manifold thereby unlocking their potential). How much is fuelling and how much is timing will be interesting to see if I remap the MAF sensor, but I will need a Knocklink and inlet temp monitoring before I touch that one, if I get round to it.

I think with your system you do not need the Dawes if you can adjust the sites where you want the duty cycles changed.

 

Chris I gather Steve has manifold as well, and PE figures are over 20bhp higher than Star. Star is the same RR as Powerstation - if you compare identical cars between PE and PS to get an idea of the difference. Still a very impressive result.

 

Hi John,

I'm running 13.1 PSI by 6000 RPM. Not very high, but can't get any more. We can't assume that our air flow is proportional to our boost pressure - the wastegases are probably having more trouble leaving your engine than mine, hence there's fresh air queueing to get in and the rise in pressure.

Hi Chris,

Spec of my car is at www.steve.ukmail.org/car... apart from the ECU. Yes, std. FMIC & turbo. Yes you can get your ECU mapped at PE. Call them for the price. You need a custom mapping session to get that sort of power safely - no ECU by post would be possible.

Cheers

Steve

 

Nope,

You're not missing anything - I just need a break away from the PC !

15.1 was my injector pulse width in milliseconds at 6300 RPM - my log file is long, so the column headings are miles away !

Sorry 'bout that.

Steve

 

If you use a small extra bleed on a small turbo you can have incredibly brisk spool up with very little overshoot - no boost to wastegate actuator until very near to set point. It is like running with a disconnected wastegate nipple.

If you put the Dawes in at 10PSI that would reduce wastegate creep low down I suppose Stephen, but it would also aim for 10PSI no matter what the throttle opening - not a problem practically.

Regarding the high revs - with a Dawes it does boost higher up top, but you can adjust the actuator to compensate.

From what you have said I believe the ECU uses a fairly static duty cycle during spool up. The Dawes spools up much quicker - like a maximum duty cycle during spool up. If you could make the original ECU do this (with full PID) it would be every bit as good, but would need PD code writing - from what you say it sounds like it is static + integral as it is.

The EBC design I am working on seems even quicker because you don't need the bleed (which numbs the Dawes slightly to control part throttle and spiking) so at WOT you can go ballistic with your duty cycles and make it really aggressive but a kitten at part throttle openings. If you make the standard ECU do this you would have a real winner.

If your remap is still using the ECU's original boost technique, I personally would run a Dawes or EBC as well, as I don't think you can beat them unless you rewrite the ECU code.

[Edited by john banks - 3/10/2002 11:32:22 AM]

 

13.1 at 6000 vs "DeltaDash shows that my Injector Duty is hitting a maximum of 80.3% at 6380 RPM with a boost pressure of 15.1 PSI"

Have I missed something? Both seem to be referring to your car?

Also with regard to PE figures just saw a post with 54 BHP on top of standard on MY98 just from decat exhaust and ITG panel filter. I think a comparison on the same rolling road would be useful but difficult so far away - as it is I don't know if Steve's mods result in 10 bhp more or 30 bhp more!

[Edited by john banks - 3/10/2002 10:07:30 PM]