pappasmurf

I have front and rear Whiteline adjustable ARB to fit to my UK classic. I ordered 22mm ARB for both front and rear...although they are not clearly labeled as 22mm.
The Rear ARB has three holes.....i pressume the middle hole will be the 22mm setting. The front bar has two holes....which hole do i use for a 22mmm setting?.....forgive my ignorance if i'm missing something here.
Any help greatly appreciated.

Also, local Subaru dealer can do the geometry for me to the prodrive settings. Would this be good for fast road driving or anyone else have any suggestions?

many thanks.

ozzy

Geometry can be a very personal thing as it depends on your driving style. I didn't like the Prodrive settings. Do a search for the Whiteline settings.

Stefan

911

Stefan is so right.

Get to a good alignment shop, ie PowerStation, Roger Clark, TSL but not a dealer.
As to the roll bars.
As a starting point, put the fronts on the holes closest to the ends of the arms, and the rear in the middle.
Be prepared to try that out, and then make one change at a time to see if things improve (all after the alignment)
The whiteline settings are very very good. I have hill climbed on them for 3 years now.

Everyone likes a car this way or another, this is why the bars have different setting positions so you can dial it all in.

Have fun and let us know where you ended up.

Graham.

pappasmurf

Many thanks Graham and Stefan.
Roger Clark is probably closet to me to do the alignment. The whiteline site is very helpful.
Have been looking at some previous posts on this suspension/handling subject which has been very helpful.

Would any of you suggest i get Camber bolts at each corner as i'm going to fit the uprated front and rear ARB and all round drop links. I already have Eibach Pro kit springs. The whiteline site seems to suggest camber bolts as beneficial. Would they be beneficial on my MY00 UK Classic?

Will not be going down the uprated top mounts route.....not yet anyway. I can live with some understeer....just need less of it and less body roll.

john.

Fuzz

with 22mm front and rear bars on a classic I think it would be a little too stiff on the front, promoting understeer.
You'd be better off with a 24mm on the rear if you wish to keep the 22mm on the front.


Andy

Fuzz

Camber bolts can be decided on, on the day, sometimes you can get the settings you want, sometimes you cant!
At £21.28 + vat each it's best not to buy them unless you really need them.
Although saying that camber bolts do make aligning it much quicker.

Andy

pappasmurf

If i have the 22mm ARB on the rear with 3 hole adjustments in increments of 20mm/22mm/24mm....will puting it on the 24mm hole be better if i have a 22mm on the front?
Some people think i would be better off with just the rear ARB.

I think i will fit the rear first, with drop links all round. Then fit the front and see what difference i feel....and play with the various settings.

911

That's the way! Try it and see!!

That is why suspension tweeks are so interesting, all down to personal taste.
Good luck with it all, let us know what you find/think.
Graham

Fuzz

22mm on front (non adjustable) and 24mm on rear of mine on the hardest setting and it's still not tail happy enough for me.


Andy

Fuzz

Can I ask where the assumption that the softest hole of the 22mm diameter bar equals a 20mm bar ??
This only seems to have appeared recently and I fear it has come from on here without research??


Andy

pappasmurf

I've had the ARB fitted.
May i first say that i have had Eibach pro kit springs fitted for some weeks now and that this mod alone transformed the handling of the car...lowering the centre of gravity i believe...and dialing out alot of understeer, making the car alot more confident in cornering.

I first fitted the rear 22mm arb on middle setting with drop links fitted and took it for a spin as best as i could in mid day traffic. Car cornered very flat, with less understeer then before.
I then had the front 22mm bar fitted, with hole setting nearest the arm of the ARB and so far seems to have completely spoilt the benefits i had from the springs and rear ARB...still corners very flat but lots more understeer....but will try again tomorrow on more familiar roads

Any suggestions?....try new hole settings?....somehow i think i'm going to be better off with just the rear ARB??

911

Stiff front = understeer.
obvious move is to move the front links to the outermost holes on the front.
If still not enough, then put the rear on the innermost hole (closest to the bar) so restoring stiffness to the rear of the car.

Graham.

pappasmurf

...Ok, i'll keep you posted.

pappasmurf

Have removed the front 22mm ARB and put back the standard one. I have kept the rear adjustable ARB and the uprated drop links on all corners.
Have done this after experimenting and after having a good chat with Roger Clark motorsport...very knowledgable folk. Have also booked the car in for a geometry set up with them.....were fully booked until early August, so have to wait until then.

Car is now very much better for road use with just rear ARB....front was indeed far too stiff with front aswell...fine for track day use as Roger Clark suggested, but not good for road use.
Much less understeer and corners flat with rear ARB and standard front...although car is now tramlining which i presume shows it is in need of a proper allignment.

dazc

Thats what I now have. 22mm rear ARB on mid setting, and solid drop links all round. To say I'm happy with the handling is an understatement. Very good balance, corners miles better.
I was going to buy a front ARB at the same time I bought the rear, thought it would be unbalanced without it, kind of glad I didn't now.

Looks like the front droplinks tighten it up just enough, but a front ARB is a bit much for the road then? At least without alignment.
Keep us posted on how much difference that makes.

Cheers,
Daz

pappasmurf

Roger Clark Motorsport actually suggested to me there was no need for front drop links, but as i had bourght them already i had them fitted. But a front ARB they felt was a no no for road use...but ok for track use.

Indeed, the front ARB is too stiff and actually induces understeer that the rear ARB helps to eliminate. Understeer is not gone....but is much improved.
However, my car is in need of proper allignment, so will be interesting to see the difference after that. Car is booked in to Roger Clark for Aug 3rd. They told me i will be amazed at the differece when the car is properly set up.

Only redeeming factor i could say about the front ARB was it made cornering very flat.....but i didn't feel any confidence in the handling.

Took the car out for a blast around some roundabouts last night to see how she handled and also experimented with tyre pressures...as the whiteline web site suggests this can make a difference.`

Jiggerypokery

The tyre type will also have an effect on the cornering "feel". I also have the front and rear adjustable bars with drop links. The rear is on the middle hole and with well worn original Bridgestone RE050s the car felt amazing on tight roundabouts. Now I have new F1 GSD3 XLs and there is a rubbery squirmy feel on turn-in.

This is my near-side front ARB, it's not so easy to tell which is the softest setting, can anyone tell by looking at the picture? It's on the 'upper' hole.


Also, how would a hard front and hardest-setting rear combination compare to a soft front and mid-setting rear?

Jiggerypokery

I just took a look at the fron ARB on the car - when the wheel takes the weight, the bolt goes through the front hole - the firmest setting! I adjusted the front bar to the softest setting and now I'm getting more oversteer... better, but I still need to scrub a few thousand miles off these tyres before I'll feel confident again

911

If you are getting really serious about things, tyres that are new are cr@p on the 'edge'!
Always scrub the tyres in, and well worn tyres are just right for the best dry weather grip.
The demon tyres for max grip are all made with about 5mm thread depth max. This is for good reason; there is little tread block 'shuffle' to contend with while flat out around a corner.
This condition makes a massive difference.
You will never see a hill climber racing on fresh tyres!!
They will almost always be of a state to fail the MoT, especially if they are the prized Bridgstone SO2 pp's..but that is another story.

Graham.

Fuzz

with some of the tyres we take off customers cars, I think I could make a living in part worns suitable for trackday use.
Not sure about the H&S side of things though. sure to put a spanner in the works.

Andy

DubaiNeil

Quote from Jiggerypokery 'the bolt goes through the front hole - the firmest setting!'

According to Whiteline: 'A general princple to remmember with regards sway bar stiffness, is that the longer the sway bar arm the softer the sway bar, and the shorter the sway bar length the stiffer the sway bar - provided no other changes are made.' (their spoolign mistakes not mine!)

I would have thought that this meant that the holes closest to the 'end' of the swaybar would be the softest, and those furthest back towards the main part of the bar would be the hardest?

Time to suck it and see!!

Jiggerypokery

It's more difficult to tell with the front bar, but when then wheels are on the ground, the main part of the bar is towards the front of the car, and the rear hole looks like it is the closest to the "end" of the bar (the furthest from the main part of the bar - the photo above was taken when the bar was fitted, with the wheels off the ground - it's easier to fit them with the weight on the wheels). It "seems" to have more oversteer now based on a short drive.

I would still like to know what it would feel like with a firm front and firmest rear setting. Maybe I'll get dirty again at the weekend

Fuzz

the closer the holes get to the main cross bar, the stiffer the effect of the bar becomes.
As for which holes for the front bar, I have no idea as I've only ever fitted non adjustable ones on the front.

Clearer pictures would go a long way.


Andy

911

Sometimes you can have too many things to adjust!
I have the simple one-position bar in the front and the 3 way rear bar. Nice and simple for what I need.
Graham.

pappasmurf

Having had the front adjustable front bar removed from the car for a week now and putting back the original and having done a few miles driving i'm much happier with just the rear arb for road driving.
Understeer has been dramatically reduced along with body roll and the car is much sharper at turning. Have even had the rear end twitch slightly.
However, the steering still feels very light and i do miss the extremely flat cornering feel that a front roll bar gives....but not i have to say, at the expense of terrible understeer at whatever setting the front arb was set at.

Everyones tastes and styles are different i guess.

How do you get rid of some of that light weight feel to the steering?
Will my geometry setup kill some of it off?

superstring

Adding some positive castor will add some weight to the steering (as well as improving the handling by providing more dynamic negative camber in the corners). The Whiteline ALK adds a bit, adjustable top mounts (Whiteline/MRT) add even more but raise the front of the car by 10-15mm.


Probably not.

pappasmurf

Have had the allignment done at Roger Clark Motorsport for fast road use today....Very happy with the feel and hadling of the car on the two hour journey back home. Car handles so much better as the allignment was quite some way out.
Eibach Sports springs, Uprated ARB and now proper allignment by Roger Clark have given me a very nice car indeed.

I can highly recomend Roger Clark motorsport.

finnie

Thanks for this thread. I really want to maintain comfort but dial out some of the understeer. I am in the process of getting quotes for whiteline gear but now I think I'll not bother with the front anti roll bar.

Which settings did you end up going for prodrive or whiteline???

John Stevenson

Hee Hee, 22mm/24mm is the thickness of the bar, not the hole position. Standard rear bar 18-19mm IIRC.

Moving from the end of the bar in the way increases the roll resistance.

ozzy

John I think what people were drawing was a comparison in stiffness/softness and not the actual measurement of the hole itself. Sounds like you're the donkey for thinking that's what everyone was on about

For example, does the hole position on an adjustable 22mm bar relate "in stiffness" to the corresponding 20, 22 and 24mm fixed bars? With the bar fixed in the outer hole, does it provide the same stiffness as a fixed 20mm diameter bar?

The simple answer is no. The increase in stiffness or softness depends on the bar thickness (that's the mm measurement as you rightly point out) and the length of swaybar arm.

I asked Whiteline to clarify things and provide any exact measurements on the stiffness of each bar. Unfortunately they don't have it.

This was the response from one of the Whiteline techies:-

"Hi Stefan,
OEM sway bar sizes do vary between different models and markets around the world. It is best to measure your sway bars.

Our adjustable sway bars to suit Subaru Impreza models have 2 holes and 3 holes per side, front and rear respectively. As the adjustment stiffness depends on the the ratio of the distance between each hole (adjustment setting) and the pivot point (chassis bush), it is not as clear cut and can vary between 0.5mm to 1.5mm or more. It really does depend on the individual sway bars, and unfortunately we do not have such information for every single sway bar.

As a rule of thumb;
- our 2 hole adjustable sway bars, the 2 holes would be positioned so that the OEM hole would be in the middle. For example;
soft = 10mm longer arm
hard = 10mm shorter arm.

- our 3 hole adjustable sway bars, the middle hole would be positioned close to the factory hole, with soft and hard on either side. For example;
soft = 20mm longer arm
middle = same as OEM
hard = 20mm shorter arm

Please note, that this only onle a general guide, but you can use this to work out each setting for your specific sway bar.

Also, irrespective of the size, we always encourage adjustable sway bars as they are invaluable suspension tuning tool.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Wojtek.
Flatout with Whiteline Automotive"

Stefan