What spring rated for hillclimp?
25 May 2007, 09:52 AM
#1
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What spring rates for hillclimp?
I have TEIN HA dampers. I currently have the original springs that come with the kit 8 kgf/mm front 6 kgf/mm rear.
I wonder if there will be any improvment if I put harder springs.
There is not exessive roll now but there is much front end lift when accelarating. I do use ALK.
What spring rates you hillclimpers use?
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...y/DSC_1072.jpg
I wonder if there will be any improvment if I put harder springs.
There is not exessive roll now but there is much front end lift when accelarating. I do use ALK.
What spring rates you hillclimpers use?
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...y/DSC_1072.jpg
Last edited by stavros; 25 May 2007 at 11:12 AM.
25 May 2007, 08:06 PM
#2
Most of us have softened the rates!
I ran 60/50 rates last year, adn 50/40 the year before.
i've returned to 50/40 and the car car is much nicer, but I don't have 500 x 500!
Maybe the damper settings need adjusting to slow the rise on power take-off?
Or maybe the weight transfer is high and the rear rates you have are 'soft'?
I was always told that the rears should be about 80% of the front (ie 50/40).
Rob Harriman runs softer than me.
I ran 60/50 rates last year, adn 50/40 the year before.
i've returned to 50/40 and the car car is much nicer, but I don't have 500 x 500!
Maybe the damper settings need adjusting to slow the rise on power take-off?
Or maybe the weight transfer is high and the rear rates you have are 'soft'?
I was always told that the rears should be about 80% of the front (ie 50/40).
Rob Harriman runs softer than me.
26 May 2007, 06:27 AM
#3
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If I stiffen the damper setting the car slides.
The 8/6 kgf/mm I run is in the 80% range as you said and slightly softer than you run now.
I see some racing cars in Japan that race in circuits that use much much harder springs, however they do not have any pumps.
I guess I will have to live with the lift, it may be a matter of horsepower.
After all handling is very good overall, I just wondered if it could be improved even more.
The 8/6 kgf/mm I run is in the 80% range as you said and slightly softer than you run now.
I see some racing cars in Japan that race in circuits that use much much harder springs, however they do not have any pumps.
I guess I will have to live with the lift, it may be a matter of horsepower.
After all handling is very good overall, I just wondered if it could be improved even more.
Last edited by stavros; 26 May 2007 at 06:39 AM.
26 May 2007, 09:51 AM
#4
Rob experimented with 80/60 if not harder on his AST's and they came off 1 hillclimb later, made the car very unstable and tail happy.
I think it is all a matter of blending the parts, and sometimes the combination is just not right. Here is my latest front suspension, and the only question is the 24 mm roll bar, as this might be far too stiff, induce understeer or might suit the rear end set-up.
All an experimental project!
Graham.
I think it is all a matter of blending the parts, and sometimes the combination is just not right. Here is my latest front suspension, and the only question is the 24 mm roll bar, as this might be far too stiff, induce understeer or might suit the rear end set-up.
All an experimental project!
Graham.
26 May 2007, 10:32 AM
#5
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stavros - I think you have a problem with your b's and your p's mate.
I don't know what hillclimpers are??? Sounds like some kind of strange country bumpkin fettish thing going on
I don't know what hillclimpers are??? Sounds like some kind of strange country bumpkin fettish thing going on
26 May 2007, 04:13 PM
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terryb this just spelling mistake but what if it was not???
Do you speak or read any Greek? NO, I thought so....
You see english is not my language...and... nobody here asked for spelling correction... get a life.
Graham, I think the 24mm antirol seems too mach, I use 22mm front and 21 rear and have no understeer at all, on the rear I have the Cusco adjustable and is set at the softest setting because anywhere harder it promoted oversteer at corner exit. Also the widening of the car helped too much the stability, I have 20mm spacers and 9x17 +38 wheels. You should try to pump the flares a bit and put some wheel spacers. Last year before the wide body kit I used Eibach 20mm spacers and 7x16 wheels with 225/45/16 and I just pumped the fenders very little.
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...Photo-0006.jpg
Do you speak or read any Greek? NO, I thought so....
You see english is not my language...and... nobody here asked for spelling correction... get a life.
Graham, I think the 24mm antirol seems too mach, I use 22mm front and 21 rear and have no understeer at all, on the rear I have the Cusco adjustable and is set at the softest setting because anywhere harder it promoted oversteer at corner exit. Also the widening of the car helped too much the stability, I have 20mm spacers and 9x17 +38 wheels. You should try to pump the flares a bit and put some wheel spacers. Last year before the wide body kit I used Eibach 20mm spacers and 7x16 wheels with 225/45/16 and I just pumped the fenders very little.
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z...Photo-0006.jpg
26 May 2007, 06:54 PM
#7
And a 2 door conversion!
On your Project thread there will be several (hillclimbers) who will be looking hard at the suspension of your car.
I have the Whiteline adjustable transverse arms which I've widened as far as the driveshafts will allow me to to get a little extra rear track.
9'' rims are VERY wide for any Impreza in the UK, certainly for a classic.
I take your point about the front bar.
I have run a 22mm front and the 24mm on middle/soft holes (of 3) and the car is great, but Whiteline have sent the big front bar for me to try for free, so i need to give it a go.
Whiteline are no idiots so I cannot help there must be a good reason for this especially as it came to me with their Roll Centre kit and suggestions to fit the lot as a whole combination, not as separate parts.
I very much like to experiment with the chassis of cars more than the engines, but for now I will keep the 22mm front bar in the car when I do my first hillclimb with the new front end next weekend.
At least they are easy to change quickly.
Back to the wider track:
The latest Imprezas are much wider than the classic, but your new car is wider again, about 40mm on the spacers and then the rim width.
Did you also widen the front?
Sorry for the questions in public; if you would rather not give the secrets then I fully understand!
Finally, I know Terry and he means no insult to you. He used to hillclimb but now has a 500+ bhp Classic for the tracks over here and is a good guy.
Graham.
On your Project thread there will be several (hillclimbers) who will be looking hard at the suspension of your car.
I have the Whiteline adjustable transverse arms which I've widened as far as the driveshafts will allow me to to get a little extra rear track.
9'' rims are VERY wide for any Impreza in the UK, certainly for a classic.
I take your point about the front bar.
I have run a 22mm front and the 24mm on middle/soft holes (of 3) and the car is great, but Whiteline have sent the big front bar for me to try for free, so i need to give it a go.
Whiteline are no idiots so I cannot help there must be a good reason for this especially as it came to me with their Roll Centre kit and suggestions to fit the lot as a whole combination, not as separate parts.
I very much like to experiment with the chassis of cars more than the engines, but for now I will keep the 22mm front bar in the car when I do my first hillclimb with the new front end next weekend.
At least they are easy to change quickly.
Back to the wider track:
The latest Imprezas are much wider than the classic, but your new car is wider again, about 40mm on the spacers and then the rim width.
Did you also widen the front?
Sorry for the questions in public; if you would rather not give the secrets then I fully understand!
Finally, I know Terry and he means no insult to you. He used to hillclimb but now has a 500+ bhp Classic for the tracks over here and is a good guy.
Graham.
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27 May 2007, 09:12 AM
#8
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There is no secret about the car!!
The front is widened the same as the rear, but we may try to use a little narrower front track to see the difference.
I would like to hear your comments when you try the 24mm bar, it will interesting to see what will be the car's behaviour.
Does the whiteline roll center adjusting kit includes the bump steer mod?
I have the SYMS roll center kit and BAER ( Baer Brake Systems ) bump steer adjustable tie-rods with rose joint.
Also underneath I have all the available braces including some rare AQUA front crossmember braces.
An other very important thing that very often is not considered by racers is the weight distribution. Our car has 60/40% front to rear, 55/45% right to left and the most important it has 50/50% cross weight!! This makes the car neutral.
Stav
The front is widened the same as the rear, but we may try to use a little narrower front track to see the difference.
I would like to hear your comments when you try the 24mm bar, it will interesting to see what will be the car's behaviour.
Does the whiteline roll center adjusting kit includes the bump steer mod?
I have the SYMS roll center kit and BAER ( Baer Brake Systems ) bump steer adjustable tie-rods with rose joint.
Also underneath I have all the available braces including some rare AQUA front crossmember braces.
An other very important thing that very often is not considered by racers is the weight distribution. Our car has 60/40% front to rear, 55/45% right to left and the most important it has 50/50% cross weight!! This makes the car neutral.
Stav
27 May 2007, 02:59 PM
#9
The new Whiteline kit has longer bottom ball joints (about 6mm) and the track rod ends are similarly 'set' to re-align the geometry.
There is no shimming of the rack to correct bump steer, but my car has no bump steer geometry to start with according to Powe Station who aligns the car for me.
Have you seen this:
Go to page 2.
22B Bulletin Board: Hillclimb testing: 1.2...3
As to corner weighting:
I remember spending ages getting my hillclimb 911 weighted (very difficult to adjust each corner) and the difference was dramatic.
Graham.
There is no shimming of the rack to correct bump steer, but my car has no bump steer geometry to start with according to Powe Station who aligns the car for me.
Have you seen this:
Go to page 2.
22B Bulletin Board: Hillclimb testing: 1.2...3
As to corner weighting:
I remember spending ages getting my hillclimb 911 weighted (very difficult to adjust each corner) and the difference was dramatic.
Graham.
28 May 2007, 07:35 AM
#10
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Graham, let talk geometry since you have the guru I suppose you have come up with a good setting.
At the last race I used 3 deg camber front and 2.2 rear, 0 toe front and rear and maximum caster, about 3.5 deg.
With the camber I think I'm happy but it's toe I'm steel wondering. Last year I used a little toe out up front and zero at the rear, the car was good, just a little tail happy.
The problem is that we do not have ANY track that we can run any testings so everything is tested at the actual race where it is very dificult to compare behaviours. I can only try different setting at Gran Turismo!!!
I beleive you do a lot of testings with Power Station, so what are the settings you came up with that worked best for you?
At the last race I used 3 deg camber front and 2.2 rear, 0 toe front and rear and maximum caster, about 3.5 deg.
With the camber I think I'm happy but it's toe I'm steel wondering. Last year I used a little toe out up front and zero at the rear, the car was good, just a little tail happy.
The problem is that we do not have ANY track that we can run any testings so everything is tested at the actual race where it is very dificult to compare behaviours. I can only try different setting at Gran Turismo!!!
I beleive you do a lot of testings with Power Station, so what are the settings you came up with that worked best for you?
28 May 2007, 08:30 AM
#11
I am no specialist, buti do find the subject interesting and delve into things a bit deeper than some.
I have learnt to find the specialists, and finding John has been the key to the door so to speak!
It is about blending all the parts to work better together, but i can only tell you about my own experiences: it could be quite different on your car!
The settings you have are quite close to mine as most have found the Max caster/2+ deg neg camber and zero front toe to be good (on radial tyres), but with the cross ply racing slicks I use (AVON's) things are very different, and John knows a lot about these tyres which is rare.
We had to change the geometry quite a bit at the front (I will pm you the exact settings as my fellow competitors read this stuff!) to get the temperatures across the tyre even as possible and the fine changes needed to achieve this was very interesting.
Tyre pressures changed a lot too to compliment the geometry, and finally the damper settings which was a big change again.
I have the excellent AST 3 way adjustable dampers specially made by Power Station for the car, and these are my second set; I started with the single rbound adjustable units 3 years ago. The 3 ways are hard to set-up on the road, hence doing the track session to sort them out.
I will list the mods to the car as it stands today, and pm you ALL the settings now on the car after the test day.
Car: Sti V3 4 door saloon. 350 bhp / 350 lbft.
Front:
AST 3 ways + 50 rated springs + AST adjustable top mounts
Whiteline:
Roll center kit + anti roll bar + adjustable drop links + ALK + lower brace + plastic bushes everywhere, including the steering rack bushes.
Quick rack off Sti RA
Rear
AST's with 40 spring rates with AST adjustable top mounts
Whiteline:
Transverse lower arms, subframe locking kit, 24mm roll bar and drop links, braced roll bar mountings.
Plastic suspension and diff subframe/diff plastic bushes
Tyres:
AVON hill climb compound slicks 8.5 x 22 x 16 size on Sti V3 rims (7'')
Brakes: Stock! (with Pagid pads), no abs, AP racing bias adjuster.
I will now pm the settings on the car which i ask you keep between us!
Graham.
I have learnt to find the specialists, and finding John has been the key to the door so to speak!
It is about blending all the parts to work better together, but i can only tell you about my own experiences: it could be quite different on your car!
The settings you have are quite close to mine as most have found the Max caster/2+ deg neg camber and zero front toe to be good (on radial tyres), but with the cross ply racing slicks I use (AVON's) things are very different, and John knows a lot about these tyres which is rare.
We had to change the geometry quite a bit at the front (I will pm you the exact settings as my fellow competitors read this stuff!) to get the temperatures across the tyre even as possible and the fine changes needed to achieve this was very interesting.
Tyre pressures changed a lot too to compliment the geometry, and finally the damper settings which was a big change again.
I have the excellent AST 3 way adjustable dampers specially made by Power Station for the car, and these are my second set; I started with the single rbound adjustable units 3 years ago. The 3 ways are hard to set-up on the road, hence doing the track session to sort them out.
I will list the mods to the car as it stands today, and pm you ALL the settings now on the car after the test day.
Car: Sti V3 4 door saloon. 350 bhp / 350 lbft.
Front:
AST 3 ways + 50 rated springs + AST adjustable top mounts
Whiteline:
Roll center kit + anti roll bar + adjustable drop links + ALK + lower brace + plastic bushes everywhere, including the steering rack bushes.
Quick rack off Sti RA
Rear
AST's with 40 spring rates with AST adjustable top mounts
Whiteline:
Transverse lower arms, subframe locking kit, 24mm roll bar and drop links, braced roll bar mountings.
Plastic suspension and diff subframe/diff plastic bushes
Tyres:
AVON hill climb compound slicks 8.5 x 22 x 16 size on Sti V3 rims (7'')
Brakes: Stock! (with Pagid pads), no abs, AP racing bias adjuster.
I will now pm the settings on the car which i ask you keep between us!
Graham.
28 May 2007, 06:10 PM
#13
There are AVONs and then there are hillclimb AVON's!
The compound choice gets better but @ 16'' the choice is very good.
The tyres are specifically designed for hillclimbs as opposed to circuits etc so ver focused.
My problem is making the very best from them (need more bravery pills or much bigger bits between the legs
)
Graham
The compound choice gets better but @ 16'' the choice is very good.
The tyres are specifically designed for hillclimbs as opposed to circuits etc so ver focused.
My problem is making the very best from them (need more bravery pills or much bigger bits between the legs
)Graham
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