Palmo

I have recently had 4 new tyres fitted (changed from Bridgestone RE011's to Toyo T1R's) and am now getting very minor wheel vibrations through the steering wheel.

Each of the new tyres has a small yellow circle stamped on the sidewall, should this be aligned with the tyre valves? None of them are - is this a possible cause or just poor wheel balancing?
I have read elsewhere that the tyre should be fitted with the yellow mark's positioned to line up with the wheel valve as the mark's indicate the lightest point of the tyre determined under static balancing conditions whatever that means? Does this really make a difference?

There were no vibrations previously with the old unevenly worn Bridgestones. Admittedly the vibrations are relatively minor and predominantley felt when cruising at around 75 - 80 mph?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Martin

dazc

I think that is poor balancing. It doesn't matter which way a tyre is put on (directional tread aside) they are balanced by the weights put at opposite sides.
Eg, the wheel itself may not even be perfectly balanced, so how does the tyre manufacturer know they are not making it worse?

I have had situations where a tyre has been rebalanced but vibration still occurs, but what had happened is that the tyre had gone egg shaped (will still balance but runs lumpy), but yours are too new for that.

I would definately get it rechecked, or swap the tyres around a bit (one at a time front to rear) to try and find the dodgy one, unless they're all the same!

Daz

Palmo

Daz

I thought it was more likely to be balancing - it is minor vibration I must be honest, but never the less, I would not have expected to get any vibration from new tyres when the old unevenly worn tyres gave none - the guy fitting the tyres even commented that my wheels seemed to be in excellent condition with no visible bends at all - never kerb etc. and have covered approx. 36k miles.
I will go back and get them re-balanced.

Hoppy

It's got to be wheel balance. Here are some possible causes:

a) The fitter was a plonker.

b) You've lost a balance weight. Not stuck on properly, or maybe knocked off by the caliper?

c) This is one that had me puzzled, but do you run McGard lock nuts? If so, they are about three times the weight of standard Scoob wheel nuts and after some experiments at a local fitters, we establsihed that you need an extra 5-10g on the wheel to get correct balance. Generally speaking, 10g is regarded as an acceptable tolerance by some tyre fitters, but you can still feel it. The slight imbalance is mysterious because I think it only shows up when you've got both lock nuts rotating in tandem, if you see what I mean, so when you go round a corner the lock nuts move in relation to eachother and the vibration disappears.

Be interested to find out what's wrong.

Richard.

Palmo

Richard,

Some of your comments are very interesting - I do indeed have 'McGard lock nuts' which are much bigger than the standard wheel nuts - so it stands to reason that they are going to be heavier.

However, I wonder why this has never showed up before with my previous tyres - I've only ever had the original Bridgestone REO11's in the past (until I realised they're not the best) - had about 3 previous sets with no vibration problems.

The vibration isn't major I must admit, but is there at around 75 - 80mph which is annoying (especially as the old unevenley worn tyres were perfect with regards to balancing at least).

Are the Toyo's more sensitive to balancing I wonder? Will be going back to the tyre place sometime tommorrow for re-balancing and with the suggestion of differing locking wheel nut weights - will post the outcome.

I'm also having problems with pulling over to the left - this seems to be related to a recent geometry alignment - I've posted about this under the suspension section - maybe you can offer some advice on that also?

Cheers

Martin

Hoppy

Martin, let us know how it goes.

I suspect your fitter will say the lock nut makes no difference as it's in the centre, but the McGard is so heavy and the Subaru nuts so light, I wanted to check it out. You'll need some lead flashing to replicate my highly scientific experiment

I made a precision set of scales by balancing a six-inch ruler on a torch battery. I put the McGard nut on one side and the OEM nut on the other, and I then loaded it up with strips of flashing about 1/4in wide and 1in long. When they balanced, I had 8in of flashing sitting under the Sub nut I then cut a single strip of flashing 1/4in x 8in and set off to the fitters.

We put a wheel on the balance machine, checked it was balanced correctly, and then wrapped the flashing around one of the five studs used to secure the wheel. We fired it up and sure enough, the machine said stick another 10g on the outside edge, directly opposite where we'd secured the flashing. It only reads in 5g increments so I assume that the exact difference is somewhere between 8-12g on my 17in wheel.

The car feels smoother now, or is it my imagination?!

Richard.

PS Edited to add comment on your pulling to the left. It's not just road camber, is it? If not, you're tracking has not been done correctly (assuming you've not dinged a wheel or something). I find the likes of QuickFit who use something like a torch and a piece of string, to be hopeless. I use a specialist that has a lazer alignment machine (over £50k I think) near Daventry. Cost £47.

Palmo

Cheers for the info Richard - I'll see what happens tomorrow.

Regarding the pulling over - you'd have to look at my other thread under the 'suspension section' entittled "Wandering / Pulling over after Geometry Adjustments". I have had an expensive (£120 odd) 4 wheel geometry alignment done by a well regarded scooby specialist (using an eight camera laser set-up I think - it took an hour + to do). The car now handles much better with improved turn-in etc. but now wanders to the left (car was initially tramlining also until changed Bridgestone REO11's fot the Toyo T1R's). If you look on my other post you will see the old settings versus the new etc.

Martin

dazc

I still think they have just not been balanced correctly.

Chances are it is most noticeable on the front, so take the locking nuts off and swap them with std nuts from the back if you think it's that. Or even better swap back to the spare original ones if you still have them.
Personally I don't think that it is the locking nuts causing your problem, as the slight difference in weight is contained within the hub, so should not cause a problem.
Ie, if I remove a wheel, I rarely put the locker back on in the same place!

However, I don't disbelieve Hoppy for achieving a perfect balance! Daz

Palmo

Update on vibration problem:

First of all, this morning I removed the locking wheel nuts and replaced them with the original nuts to see if these were causing the problem. It made absolutely no difference.

So, I then returned to the tyre place and had the wheels re-balanced. They were indeed out slightly. I test drove the car to find no real difference, so went back again. The tyres were then spun on the rims to align the yellow circles (stamped on the side walls - this apparently is the lightest point of the tyre?) with the tyre valves (heaviest point of the wheel). The wheels were then re-balanced, each of them requiring approx. 15 - 20 grammes (think the weights are in grammes arn't they?) in total. Fitter again commented that the wheels look in perfect condition with no obvious bends etc.

Then test drove the car to find the vibrations virtually gone, although I can still detect a minute vibration, now at 85mph - but it is now more acceptable - still not as good as with the previous "worn" tyres though - strange.

I have later experimented further, driving the car with the locking wheel nuts on and then with them replaced with standard nuts. Can't say I can tell any difference so obviously reverted to having them on.

Thanks for all the comments and advice.

Martin

Hoppy

Martin, glad you got it sorted, but I don't understand the yellow dot business. Pukka balancing should iron out that variation anyway, and my new Goodyear F1s don't have any yellow dots... Whatever, you're happy and that's what counts

Richard.

dazc

I still wouldn't be happy with 99%.
Take them somewhere else if they dont sort themselves out in a few miles, otherwise the problem can just get worse with uneven wear.

Tyre could eventually go a funny shape (due to wobble) and then cause vibration on its own, regardless of whether its balanced correctly.

The fact that they are better now they have been rebalanced, should reassuringly tell you that's all the problem is.

Daz

Palmo

To be honest it is frustrating especially as I haven't had this problem before (not on this car anyway).

I have driven the car again today and have to say, although better, the vibration does still exist. Does anyone know of anywhere in the North (around Manchester would be ideal) that do "wheel balancing on the car"? I've heard of this sort of thing before but don't know of anywhere that does it. This, I guess, would at least allow for the wheels and whole axle to be balanced in line with each other. This, I presume, would also take other minor variances shuch as locking wheel nut weight differences, brake disc weight etc. into account.

Does anybody know of where I could get this done?

Hoppy

I've not seen wheels balanced like that for a very long time.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think the actual measuring equipment was very good. There must be a good reason why this method is no longer used.

markwild

Hi - sorry to butt in, but I have a similar problem and it may help you out ?

I had new tyres fitted last week and have had this very issue - However, when I investigated, by taking a front wheel off, the spigot ring in the back of the wheel was missing !

I went back today and they've fitted new ones and re-balanced, but its still doing it - however, I've just checked and the spigot rings on the front appear to be a couple of mill. too large and are loose on the hub (I can move them from side to side)....

Does anyone know if this is critical - as its causing major grief !

Palmo, if your wheels are aftermarket it might be worth checking....

Mark

Palmo

Mark,

You're not "butting in" - any advice is very welcome, that's exactely what I'm looking for!

Regarding the "spigot ring" - is this something used with aftermarket wheels? I am running stock WRX rims and so don't think I have these. I have had my wheels balanced three times now, each time there seems to be a slight difference but the vibration is still there - it's not bad enough to move the wheel side to side, rather a distant vibration felt in the steering wheel broadly between 70 - 90 mph. I have also tried moving wheels front to back but with no success - still feels the same. I've also tried coasting with clutch dipped / in neutral briefly to see if this makes any difference i.e. to eliminate the drivetrain / gearbox and the problem is still there.

I am really at a loss now. I'm wondering if the wheel balancing machines are not accurately calibrated, (twice balanced at one place) and the third time balanced at another. I need to find somewhere that definately has 100% equipment in the Manchester area to have another balance I reckon.

Can anyone recommend anywhere in the Manchester area that they have recently used to have their wheels balanced that were spot on? I will give it another go but can't face wasting more money only to find the problem isn't cured!

Martin

Hoppy

Martin, you need a precision balance machine and a skilled operator to get it exactly right. One guy spent almost an hour balancing my wheels once - at Tyres Northampton (good place). Even then it can be tricky because you can't use hidden stick-on weights on the edge of the wheel. It would be interesting if you had them rebalanced with knock-on weights, fitted to the outside of the rim. This is how the cars come out of the factory.

And I would still put a 5g stick-on opposite the McGard lock nut

Richard.

markwild

Ok - Thanks -

I've sort of 'solved' mine today - well, actually I know what the problem is... The godspeed bells are thicker than standard, so the hub is not protruding through them far enough to engage into the sigot (they have a taper on the inside back edge). I'll need to fabricate some new metal spigots to fit the hub exactly (the outer part of the hub is 55mm, not 56....)

Anyhow, 'maybe' this problem is occuring with your wheels - I'm not sure if the original alloys have this taper cut into the wheel - take off a front wheel and ensure that plenty of hub is sticking through the disk centre.

Also, I did have a terrible vibration on mine once for 3 months - no garage seemed to be able to fix it - it eventually failed its MOT on a ball joint (After the local subaru dealer had changed 2 drive joints!) - The ball joint was replaced and it was perfect again !!! (No one seemed to be able to spot this whenever the car went in for investigation).

Could be worth checking that out too - I can't imagine its the balance (Unless you have a bad tyre...) - See if you can get someone to lend you a couple of wheels for 10 minutes ?)

Mark

dazc

Have you tried swapping the wheels from front to rear yet? Daz

Palmo

Hi Daz,

Tried this today. Made absolutely no difference. Since swapping I have been thinking..........if the balancing machine used was not 100% accurate - lets say only 95% for example, then that would mean each wheel was approx. 5% out. Therefore swapping the wheels around would not make any difference. Could this be the reason? Wheels have been balanced 3 times at two different place though.

I suppose that at least by swapping the wheels around I have began to prove that it isn't a defective tyre (unlikely to be more than one faulty on my car) or a problem with a wheel?

Martin

dazc

I think Mark has a point then. If you know someone else who has an impreza, see if they will swap wheels for a few mins to try and eliminate any mechanical problems.
It is highly unlikely that all the tyres will be faulty. Daz

Scoob+Bike=Fun

have you tried dave sheldon tyres near peugeot? they seem to have very good balancing machines

Adam